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Poor Performance Above 6000 Rpm

Started by Guest_springers_* , Jul 26 2009 09:10 am

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#1 Guest_springers_*

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 09:10 am

Hello fellow tdm people

I have had my 2001 Japanese import (dk) for the past 6 years! (After reviewing JBX pages it is more likely to be a 1999 4TX) The bike has always been a little different at high revs, almost if no fuel is getting to the carbs. I reckon I have just adjusted my riding style (ehm?) to suit, but curosity and poor petrol consumption has got the better of me. Bike has been into local yahama dealer and on their dyno. They have reported a sudden drop in output at high revs! Initially thought to be a coil issue -which has been replaced with no joy! Now they are querring the ecu/tdi unit at £500! The theory being a restricted jap import!

Any ideas and comments ? Has any one got a spare ecu to try? Help???

Edited by springers, 27 July 2009 - 07:01 am.

#2 wicklamulla

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 08:21 pm

Hi there and welkom to Carpe, how many miles from fill up til lorange reserve light comes on ?? sounds loike a restricted jap model to me.

ps. what'll she do flat out in top ???

Edited by wicklamulla, 26 July 2009 - 08:22 pm.

spyball alarm/immob, bluespot brake calipers and Stainless hoses, Fournales air adjustable shock with Remote Resevoir, forks raised 10mm thru yokes, racetech linear fork springs in 15 wt oil, Kappa wingrack/luggage, heated grips, Kedo handguards, dual heat controller to power heated jacket liner and or pants!!, Stebel 136DB horn, K&N air filter, colour matched Baglux tank cover (magnetic tank bag modified to fit cover), osram +50% headloight bulbs, headlight protector,"NitramSpecial" parking loight, tail light indicators all running on LED's & incorporate "Lite Buddies", MK7 Scottoiler fitted, taller screen, 2-2 stainless steel CCC's, Devil stainless down pipes. MKI Renntec engine crash bars & sump guard.
engine changed july 2007 on a dyno run it made 79.1BHP / Torque 59.9Had a brief flirtation with a 1999 MKIIa but it blew an exaust valve on the M5 so was sold on to be repaired.

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#3 Guest_springers_*

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 06:59 am


Hi and thanks for the reply

If only it had a reserve light - nothing as technical.

Looking on the JBX pages - it is a 1999 4TX - with only a speedo, rev counter and temp gauge up front.

140 miles on a tankfull - before have to change to reserve

Will scrape 115 flat out (of course just in theory (never tried it mr policeman))

Ho do the Japanese models restrict the bike - is it via the ECU (Ignitor)?

All the best

#4 Guest_number5_*

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 07:04 am

QUOTE(springers @ Sun 26th Jul 2009, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hello fellow tdm people

I have had my 2001 Japanese import (dk) for the past 6 years! The bike has always been a little different at high revs,almost if no fuel is getting to the carbs. I reckoning have just adjusted my riding to suit, but curosity and poor petrol consumption has got he better of me. Bike has been into local yahama dealer ancon their dyno. They have reported a sudden drop in output at high revs! Initially thought to be a coil issue -which has been replaced with no joy! Now they are querring the ecu/tdi unit at £500! The theory being a restricted jap import!

Any ideas and comments ? Has any one got a spare ecu to try? Help???

It is probably restricted in the ignition unit (CDI/TCI), as Japanese bikes are restricted to 180KPH (in Japan), we get lots of them here in New Zealand.
Some are just restricted by a reed switch in the speedo, but by just taking this out (or even changing the speedo to a MPH version just puts the CDI in get you home method), but Yamaha normally restrict them through the CDI.
My other bike, FJ1200, was a jap import, and wouln't rev past 6200, which equated to 180KPH, fix was to get a Red Max unit that plugs in between the CDI/TCI and allows the bike to rev out.

Some guy's have just soldered a 3Kohm resister in the wire from the CDI/TCI to the speedo switch, and apparently this works the same as the Red Max unit.

Search the interweb thingy under ignition un-restricters, there are a few in OZ I think, so maybe some of the Aussie guy's on here can help.

#5 Guest_springers_*

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 07:12 am

QUOTE(number5 @ Mon 27th Jul 2009, 08:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It is probably restricted in the ignition unit (CDI/TCI), as Japanese bikes are restricted to 180KPH (in Japan), we get lots of them here in New Zealand.
Some are just restricted by a reed switch in the speedo, but by just taking this out (or even changing the speedo to a MPH version just puts the CDI in get you home method), but Yamaha normally restrict them through the CDI.
My other bike, FJ1200, was a jap import, and wouln't rev past 6200, which equated to 180KPH, fix was to get a Red Max unit that plugs in between the CDI/TCI and allows the bike to rev out.

Some guy's have just soldered a 3Kohm resister in the wire from the CDI/TCI to the speedo switch, and apparently this works the same as the Red Max unit.

Search the interweb thingy under ignition un-restricters, there are a few in OZ I think, so maybe some of the Aussie guy's on here can help.


It all becomes slightly clearer now - dk replaced the speedo to a uk mph version and the bike has been a poor performer since (I have put up with it since 2003 !! and 12K miles) 180 kph is about 110 mph as indicated!! I'll have a google.... cheers a lot

#6 TonyDevil

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 11:49 am

if its not the restricter it could be fuel pump or coils
is it better or worse with a full tank of fuel compared to almost empty?
is it better or worse when hot (eg after 30mins of riding at motorway speeds)?

"Never argue with an idiot. They just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"
My TDM :
Black 1991 850 MK1, 160k+ miles(ish, best guess really, gave up trying to keep count after 3rd set of clocks and 3rd engine), PilotRoad2 tyres, custom stubby exhaust system, bluespot calipers & goodridge braided hoses with dunlopads, maxton forks, Ohlins shock, kedo handguards, stainless TDM grill, Scottoiler with lubetube & dual nozzle thingy, Givi Wingrack2 with E45 & 2xE36s, renntec crash bars, Autocom with blueteeth & PMR radio, TomTom Rider2, Optimate IIIsp, Bagster tank cover, anti-dazzle coating
to fit : led spotlights, heated grips, new braided lines and rear caliper that actually has bleed nipples
Silver-ish 2003 900, 70k miles, PilotRoad3 front tyre (new@65k) & PR2 rear(new at 69k), Renthal 755 bars with KTM handguards, oxford unheated grips, power commander 3usb, scorpion titanium exhausts, standard screen with vario winglet thingy, stainless grill, oem centre stand, bagster tank cover, givi monokey topplate mounted on grabrail with V46 topbox, Givi PL pannier rails with E21s, crash bungs, mirror extender thingys, Halfords Advanced Laser Blue brillance bulbs, 21w led spotlights, touring scottoiler with leehenty dual nozzle, Autocom with blueteeth & PMR radio, TomTom Rider3 Urban, winter style anti-dazzle coating
to fit : led brake light strip, replacement heated grips
current rides : TDM850 3vd/mk1=tourer&scratcher, TRX850=weekend twisty toy, 2003 TDM900=commuter, 2005 TDM900=unmolested.  Gone but not forgotton : XTZ750=overland touring toy, GS500e, GS125
If a strange looking truck driver honks at you & gives you the thumbs up, its could be me  :good:

#7 Magic

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 12:22 pm

QUOTE(springers @ Mon 27th Jul 2009, 08:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It all becomes slightly clearer now - dk replaced the speedo to a uk mph version and the bike has been a poor performer since (I have put up with it since 2003 !! and 12K miles) 180 kph is about 110 mph as indicated!! I'll have a google.... cheers a lot


Keep us informed on how you get on - I think I have the same issue, although my speedo only goes up to 180km/h - I must admit I do not ride over 160kmh anyway wub.gif
Magic

The bike is faster than the eye or the hand.

Reborn MK1 - rubbish exhaust, dirty engine, missing bolts, missing mirrors, leathal rear tyre, crap carbs - but it doesn't ground out like my old CB750 Custom used to do :-)
Now with DL650 handguards and Garmin Sat Nav

#8 wicklamulla

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 06:41 pm

do ya do mainly town/city riding or ??? reason i ask is 140 from a tankful is not very good but is reasonable if ywer city riding alot. sounds loike a restricted jap import with worn emulsion tubes !!!

spyball alarm/immob, bluespot brake calipers and Stainless hoses, Fournales air adjustable shock with Remote Resevoir, forks raised 10mm thru yokes, racetech linear fork springs in 15 wt oil, Kappa wingrack/luggage, heated grips, Kedo handguards, dual heat controller to power heated jacket liner and or pants!!, Stebel 136DB horn, K&N air filter, colour matched Baglux tank cover (magnetic tank bag modified to fit cover), osram +50% headloight bulbs, headlight protector,"NitramSpecial" parking loight, tail light indicators all running on LED's & incorporate "Lite Buddies", MK7 Scottoiler fitted, taller screen, 2-2 stainless steel CCC's, Devil stainless down pipes. MKI Renntec engine crash bars & sump guard.
engine changed july 2007 on a dyno run it made 79.1BHP / Torque 59.9Had a brief flirtation with a 1999 MKIIa but it blew an exaust valve on the M5 so was sold on to be repaired.

I loike tay and hang sangwiches !

www.kenhogantreeservices.co.uk

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#9 Guest_springers_*

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 11:02 pm

The japanese restriction theory is spot on - ecu was marked 5GG Z changed with a uk one (£95 - Blacks) marked 4TX E and the bike revs to the red line - so happiness.... it is a different machine...But the headlight doesn't work with the new ecu !!! Sadness. Put the jap ecu in - headlight works - frustration.....So after a few hours of wiring diagrams and torches i think it is down to ...... a red/black and a white/black wire ... which are on the ecu loom but not on the UK wiring diagrams - so is this the place for the resistor?? First it is off with the front and see if they end up by the speedo.Does any one have the wiring diagram for a Japanese 5GG 1999 TDM 850? Or do I try to rewire the grip to get the lights on with the new (4tx) ecu...
QUOTE(wicklamulla @ Mon 27th Jul 2009, 07:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
do ya do mainly town/city riding or ??? reason i ask is 140 from a tankful is not very good but is reasonable if ywer city riding alot. sounds loike a restricted jap import with worn emulsion tubes !!!
thanks for the reply - see above re ecu swap - mainly out of town riding at legal limits - goodish long runs - no choke

Edited by springers, 27 July 2009 - 11:27 pm.

#10 youngy

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 11:03 am

Do you have a lights on/off switch on your bike? From memory the jap market TRX had no light switch and lights came on with ignition - TDM could well be the same. You would need to buy a right hand switch unit for a UK bike and maybe a loom as well.

#11 ChrisG

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 11:57 am

Or just put a relay in and wire the lights to come on from a switched live, one from the ignition barrel would probably be easiest to get to. Make sure you put a fuse in the power lone if you go for this approach though.

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#12 TonyDevil

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 12:12 pm

i may have a spare set of UK switch gear here, will have a route around in me garage when i finish work

"Never argue with an idiot. They just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"
My TDM :
Black 1991 850 MK1, 160k+ miles(ish, best guess really, gave up trying to keep count after 3rd set of clocks and 3rd engine), PilotRoad2 tyres, custom stubby exhaust system, bluespot calipers & goodridge braided hoses with dunlopads, maxton forks, Ohlins shock, kedo handguards, stainless TDM grill, Scottoiler with lubetube & dual nozzle thingy, Givi Wingrack2 with E45 & 2xE36s, renntec crash bars, Autocom with blueteeth & PMR radio, TomTom Rider2, Optimate IIIsp, Bagster tank cover, anti-dazzle coating
to fit : led spotlights, heated grips, new braided lines and rear caliper that actually has bleed nipples
Silver-ish 2003 900, 70k miles, PilotRoad3 front tyre (new@65k) & PR2 rear(new at 69k), Renthal 755 bars with KTM handguards, oxford unheated grips, power commander 3usb, scorpion titanium exhausts, standard screen with vario winglet thingy, stainless grill, oem centre stand, bagster tank cover, givi monokey topplate mounted on grabrail with V46 topbox, Givi PL pannier rails with E21s, crash bungs, mirror extender thingys, Halfords Advanced Laser Blue brillance bulbs, 21w led spotlights, touring scottoiler with leehenty dual nozzle, Autocom with blueteeth & PMR radio, TomTom Rider3 Urban, winter style anti-dazzle coating
to fit : led brake light strip, replacement heated grips
current rides : TDM850 3vd/mk1=tourer&scratcher, TRX850=weekend twisty toy, 2003 TDM900=commuter, 2005 TDM900=unmolested.  Gone but not forgotton : XTZ750=overland touring toy, GS500e, GS125
If a strange looking truck driver honks at you & gives you the thumbs up, its could be me  :good:

#13 Guest_springers_*

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Posted 28 July 2009 - 10:58 pm

Ah - this is driving me mad - two days with wiring diagrams and spaghetti cables - the jap colour codes are completely different... ranting.gif Found out how to do smilly, jumpy things though yahoo.gif Not able to trace down the difference in the wiring - and concerned to do the light thing, just in case I send a voltage down the wrong end of the ecu.....After a lot of head scratching and a garage that looks like a tdm has exploded in it ....Maybe I have given the garage to much credit... maybe they haven't changed the speedo .... maybe they just change the mechanical bits and have left the electronics inside..... so I in typical open heart surgery - I opened the speedo unit.On the side of the speedo - is some electrics - with two black plastic posts - I assume and they look like the starts of a reed switch, but nothing runs between them or looks like it would at any speed - I assume the "new" mechanics is missing the plate, which does the thing at 180 kph .... cables state ground, ignition, output a and output b....So the plan - unless the people from the forum (those down under may know lots) can give me any other ideas - assemble it all back together - see what the voltage is between ground and output a and output b - and in true blue peter style - some silver foil in between the black posts and see what happens ...Have done a major google thing but with no joy, no red max, no tdm unrestrict - Number 5 - do you have any posts/sites ???Thanks for all the comments - I'd put up with 180 kph is the performance was there...
QUOTE(TonyDevil @ Tue 28th Jul 2009, 01:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i may have a spare set of UK switch gear here, will have a route around in me garage when i finish work
Cheers Mr Devil

#14 Magic

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 12:27 pm

Just to confuse things a bit more.....

I am sure mine is a Jap inport, I have KM clocks that go up to 180km/h.

Tony and I tried to swap them over with a UK set a couple of weeks/months ago, when we did, the indicators stopped working, there is definatly an 'extra bit' in the import clocks that the UK one doesn't have.

In the end I couldn't be ar£$d - I am happy with a top speed of 180km/h - I am just going to re-spray the bike green and get some John Deer stickers rotflmmfao.gif
Magic

The bike is faster than the eye or the hand.

Reborn MK1 - rubbish exhaust, dirty engine, missing bolts, missing mirrors, leathal rear tyre, crap carbs - but it doesn't ground out like my old CB750 Custom used to do :-)
Now with DL650 handguards and Garmin Sat Nav

#15 Guest_springers_*

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 07:32 pm

QUOTE(Magic @ Wed 29th Jul 2009, 01:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just to confuse things a bit more.....

I am sure mine is a Jap inport, I have KM clocks that go up to 180km/h.

Tony and I tried to swap them over with a UK set a couple of weeks/months ago, when we did, the indicators stopped working, there is definatly an 'extra bit' in the import clocks that the UK one doesn't have.

In the end I couldn't be ar£$d - I am happy with a top speed of 180km/h - I am just going to re-spray the bike green and get some John Deer stickers rotflmmfao.gif


Kinda of felling that way too ..... my problem is the clock has been swapped - so I need a restricted Jap import kph speedo to return to normal - not bothered about the speed restriction - just want the bike to run well.
drinks.gif

#16 TonyDevil

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 09:35 am


QUOTE(springers @ Tue 28th Jul 2009, 11:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(TonyDevil @ Tue 28th Jul 2009, 01:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i may have a spare set of UK switch gear here, will have a route around in me garage when i finish work
Cheers Mr Devil


found em, where abouts are you located?

"Never argue with an idiot. They just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"
My TDM :
Black 1991 850 MK1, 160k+ miles(ish, best guess really, gave up trying to keep count after 3rd set of clocks and 3rd engine), PilotRoad2 tyres, custom stubby exhaust system, bluespot calipers & goodridge braided hoses with dunlopads, maxton forks, Ohlins shock, kedo handguards, stainless TDM grill, Scottoiler with lubetube & dual nozzle thingy, Givi Wingrack2 with E45 & 2xE36s, renntec crash bars, Autocom with blueteeth & PMR radio, TomTom Rider2, Optimate IIIsp, Bagster tank cover, anti-dazzle coating
to fit : led spotlights, heated grips, new braided lines and rear caliper that actually has bleed nipples
Silver-ish 2003 900, 70k miles, PilotRoad3 front tyre (new@65k) & PR2 rear(new at 69k), Renthal 755 bars with KTM handguards, oxford unheated grips, power commander 3usb, scorpion titanium exhausts, standard screen with vario winglet thingy, stainless grill, oem centre stand, bagster tank cover, givi monokey topplate mounted on grabrail with V46 topbox, Givi PL pannier rails with E21s, crash bungs, mirror extender thingys, Halfords Advanced Laser Blue brillance bulbs, 21w led spotlights, touring scottoiler with leehenty dual nozzle, Autocom with blueteeth & PMR radio, TomTom Rider3 Urban, winter style anti-dazzle coating
to fit : led brake light strip, replacement heated grips
current rides : TDM850 3vd/mk1=tourer&scratcher, TRX850=weekend twisty toy, 2003 TDM900=commuter, 2005 TDM900=unmolested.  Gone but not forgotton : XTZ750=overland touring toy, GS500e, GS125
If a strange looking truck driver honks at you & gives you the thumbs up, its could be me  :good:

#17 Guest_springers_*

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Posted 30 July 2009 - 09:12 pm

QUOTE(TonyDevil @ Thu 30th Jul 2009, 10:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Cheers Mr Devil
found em, where abouts are you located?

Hi Tony

Many thanks for the offer - the wiring on my bike is very different to the UK / European and I wonder how compatible any component is.
After hours with a multimeter and a number of diagrams, I think I have tracked the fault to the speed sensor on the speedo.
Currently by removing it from the speedo housing and locating it elsewhere - the fault has seemed to have cleared - although my test ride was in the wet.
Hopefully some dry (I don't even want sunny) weather will enable me to give it some !!

Please keep them to hand - I might be back and a sincere thank you to all who have contributed and learning me how to do icony things clapping.gif

#18 harvey krumpet

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 01:12 am

Mine is a Jap import too, headlight comes on with the ignition, 180kph speed. I think it may have been de- restricted somehow. Hits the red line no problem & would go off the clock with a 16 tooth front sprocket if I was that cruel. I will be doing a fair bit of work on it soon ( money needed ) & would like to find out if it has or not been de-restricted. What should i look for? Sorry to be a hijacker...

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#19 Guest_number5_*

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 07:01 am

QUOTE(springers @ Tue 28th Jul 2009, 11:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ah - this is driving me mad - two days with wiring diagrams and spaghetti cables - the jap colour codes are completely different... ranting.gif Found out how to do smilly, jumpy things though yahoo.gif Not able to trace down the difference in the wiring - and concerned to do the light thing, just in case I send a voltage down the wrong end of the ecu.....After a lot of head scratching and a garage that looks like a tdm has exploded in it ....Maybe I have given the garage to much credit... maybe they haven't changed the speedo .... maybe they just change the mechanical bits and have left the electronics inside..... so I in typical open heart surgery - I opened the speedo unit.On the side of the speedo - is some electrics - with two black plastic posts - I assume and they look like the starts of a reed switch, but nothing runs between them or looks like it would at any speed - I assume the "new" mechanics is missing the plate, which does the thing at 180 kph .... cables state ground, ignition, output a and output b....So the plan - unless the people from the forum (those down under may know lots) can give me any other ideas - assemble it all back together - see what the voltage is between ground and output a and output b - and in true blue peter style - some silver foil in between the black posts and see what happens ...Have done a major google thing but with no joy, no red max, no tdm unrestrict - Number 5 - do you have any posts/sites ???Thanks for all the comments - I'd put up with 180 kph is the performance was there...Cheers Mr Devil


I'll have a search for you, another I've heard of in Australia is a Max Pak, I'll see what I can find out.

#20 Guest_number5_*

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Posted 31 July 2009 - 08:00 am

QUOTE(springers @ Tue 28th Jul 2009, 12:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The japanese restriction theory is spot on - ecu was marked 5GG Z changed with a uk one (£95 - Blacks) marked 4TX E and the bike revs to the red line - so happiness.... it is a different machine...But the headlight doesn't work with the new ecu !!! Sadness. Put the jap ecu in - headlight works - frustration.....So after a few hours of wiring diagrams and torches i think it is down to ...... a red/black and a white/black wire ... which are on the ecu loom but not on the UK wiring diagrams - so is this the place for the resistor?? First it is off with the front and see if they end up by the speedo.Does any one have the wiring diagram for a Japanese 5GG 1999 TDM 850? Or do I try to rewire the grip to get the lights on with the new (4tx) ecu...thanks for the reply - see above re ecu swap - mainly out of town riding at legal limits - goodish long runs - no choke


Can't find anything on de-restricting the TDM, but here is a link to a CBR which restricts on the same principal, and he has done the resistor mod with success.
http://www.cr-x.org/...?TOPIC_ID=19547

The headlamp issue - my FJ1200 speedo restrictor sensor had writing in english on it ??????? don't know why for a jap bike, but one of the connections had 'Lights" written on it, and went from there to the headlamp circuit.

The restrictor is a printed circuit board with two circuit poles (square black posts) that a metal strip passes through, when between the posts it sends a signal of certain voltage to the CDI, when not between the posts the signal voltage changes, I believe it is between these two wires (on the back of the circuit board) that you join together with the resistor (the Honda mod says 3.3Kohms resistor), on mine I did the join as the wires exited the CDI.
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