42 replies to this topic

[AdvRich]

Hi,

I bought my TDM last Autumn here in the States and have been doing repairs and mods over the winter for this riding season. Reliability along with performance is my #1 focus. I got around to looking at the 20 yo fuel pump, which is still working fine, but it has stains from a previous leak coming out one end. I looked to see if there was a rebuild kit from Yamaha and no go and they want $120+ USD for a new one. I thought of going the electric replacement route that has been mentioned around the forums and could do the wiring and all, but decided to stay with the simplicity of the vacuum unit. I figure less to add is more reliablilty and also to save the few extra watts available for heated grips and gear. I looked at and bought the Mikuni vacuum pump which is pretty inexpensive, but upon getting it, noticed there is no vacuum shut off like the stock unit. A quick pressure check (yes I put my lips on it and blew) revealed it doesn't take much pressure to get a direct flow through it regardless of vacuum. The original pump has a vacuum operated shut off valve and without a shut off valve on the Mikuni, one would have to turn off the fuel petcock to ensure a stuck float seat didn't allow the tank to drain into the engine. I do shut the petcock off when I know I won't be riding for a bit, but am not in the habit of doing so after each ride.

I started tracking down the original manufacturer, Taiyo Giken, for a possible rebuild kit option. No go. I thought of material options for a rebuild and the gaskets are easily doable, but the membrane for the diaphragm gets tricky with choosing a material that can tolerate gas and ethanol, and do the millions of vacuum flex cyclings. Reliability being at the top of my list for mods, I started surfing again for other options. I eventually tracked down a source via a snowmobile guru who was knowledable with vacuum operated pumps and recongnized it as a fitment on some ATV's. That led me over to Polaris which has used it on some ATV models from 2002 - 2011 and it only costs $50.00!

For me the price, direct fit, and know reliablility was right on for my needs and budget. I bought one from a Polaris source I have and it is the exact pump, no mods or bracket work, same ports and shut off valve, not old stock, and still to be available for some years to come. Polaris part # 2520227 or on US ebay (no affiliation) for $49.99 http://www.ebay.com/...#ht_6307wt_1413

Hope this is of help,
Rich

[dapleb]

Excellent detective work Rich, thanks for sharing. Someone posted about this before and about jetski or snow do dah or summat and also spoke direct with the manufacturers who would not sell other than direct to Yamaha.

There is also the Snorv fix with OHP projector material.

Mmmm new foool pummmmp. Best ask em for International posterizing costs.

[wicklamulla]

fook me thas useful infermation, good katie price too, be interestin ta see how much p&p is from USA.

[dapleb]

£13.87 for wan pamp. Am enquiring aboot multi pamps...though it then enters the realms of import rip offs.

[wicklamulla]

no brainer, basically if ya got an old MKI (aren't they all !!!) and ya gots fooling issues and suspect the pamp is rogered then buy wan o' these !

[Coxylaad]

I fited a fuel pump from a carb fed R6/R1. problem removed.

[dapleb]

no brainer

Just a diagrammatical and some valves.

Oid say the most sensible thing to do if you suspect a fooling pamp issue would be to use the Snorv projector to diagnose first then go from dare.

[AdvRich]

Thanks guys. That's not too bad on shipping especially if you can do a few and it's roughly the same. What's the magic number for when the import fees start?

[Jumaji]

I fited a fuel pump from a carb fed R6/R1. problem removed.

I'm with Coxylaad, since fitting an early electric R1 pump some 20,000 k's ago on my '92 MK 1 , on a trip I have no qualms about running the main tank to empty anymore while on the road as the electric pump picks up fuel from reserve almost instantly while I am still on the move. Not only that but I can leave the machine standing for any amount of time [weeks even] and after waiting a second or so for the pump to stop ticking after turning the ignition on ,the old girl will start almost straight away. Personally I wouldn't have a vaccuum pump ever again. I do however find it interesting that a snowmobile has the same pump. Living as I do in an area of Australia where the temperature rarely drops below 10degrees celcius even in winter, I am not familiar with snowmobiles . how many cylinders do they have in the engine?. I think one of the problems with the TDM is that there is only one cylinder supplying the vaccuum for the pump. [ and if you have tight tappets on that cylinder, you really will have fuel supply problems!]
One of the best modification I have ever done on my TDM
Jim.

[dapleb]

What's the magic number for when the import fees start?

Its really not much. Something like £18. But I have found that sometimes stuff will come through ok up to £50. Over that and it is likely to get charged (on not only goods but customs charge applies to postage too ). USPS (which seller uses) is much betterer than any of the couriers as you then get charged a "handling fee" and all sorts of other made up charges that are also totalled before applying the customs charge.

[dapleb]

Personally I wouldn't have a vaccuum pump ever again.

Wow you managed to post from a "validating" account. That has me scared somewhat!!!!!! I am going to send you a PM, please let me know if you are also able to access the PM system from a "validating" account.

EDIT: well thats one questions answered: This message can not be sent because the recipient has their personal messenger disabled or they are in a member group not allowed to use the personal messenger.

Please could you let me know if you got a validation email from Carpe when you registered?

EDIT: Nevermind I see you are an existing member who changed their email. Panic over.

As for fool pamp, oid never have an electrical wan. Me mechanical wan has worked fine for 21 years and no wires (which I fear greatly). But lots of these forward thunkin types have fitted lecky wans and seem happy.

[AdvRich]

Its really not much. Something like £18. But I have found that sometimes stuff will come through ok up to £50. Over that and it is likely to get charged (on not only goods but customs charge applies to postage too ). USPS (which seller uses) is much betterer than any of the couriers as you then get charged a "handling fee" and all sorts of other made up charges that are also totalled before applying the customs charge.

Arrghh with all the extra fees tacked on! If I remember correctly items were untaxed/bothered with up to $400 or was a gift when I lived in 'Stralia back in '05-'07 and about the same for NZ. I may be able to help if it turns out to be too much. PM if that is the case.

We have almost nothing OEM coming up on ebay for the TDM here as opposed to the fair bit of listings in Europe.

[dapleb]

Maybe we need to set up some parts trading then Rich! Do alot of importing from the US of A as I have a Merkin car too.

Whilst listening to the local radio today an ad came on from one of the agric places......they mentioned Polaris. A quick interweb search and I have found the fool pamp at £5 more available from the UK. The pump is much more expensive than your 50 buckeroos but postage is alot less. There may well be cheaper but not that I could find with onlion quotes. Ears the linky dink: http://polaris-parts.com/Welcome

The ebay guy replied to my multi pump enquiry with a detailed response "23.95" ....now if that means dollars then that ain't too bad at all if the dreaded import duty dont hit.

[Studley Ramrod]

Allens performance sells mikuni pumpalerios, but doesn't list the prices.

http://www.allensper.....el pumps.html

They also sell the 'lectric Facet fool pumps.

[AdvRich]

I fited a fuel pump from a carb fed R6/R1. problem removed.

I'm with Coxylaad, since fitting an early electric R1 pump some 20,000 k's ago on my '92 MK 1 , on a trip I have no qualms about running the main tank to empty anymore while on the road as the electric pump picks up fuel from reserve almost instantly while I am still on the move. Not only that but I can leave the machine standing for any amount of time [weeks even] and after waiting a second or so for the pump to stop ticking after turning the ignition on ,the old girl will start almost straight away. Personally I wouldn't have a vaccuum pump ever again. I do however find it interesting that a snowmobile has the same pump. Living as I do in an area of Australia where the temperature rarely drops below 10degrees celcius even in winter, I am not familiar with snowmobiles . how many cylinders do they have in the engine?. I think one of the problems with the TDM is that there is only one cylinder supplying the vaccuum for the pump. [ and if you have tight tappets on that cylinder, you really will have fuel supply problems!]
One of the best modification I have ever done on my TDM
Jim.

From what I found out during my initial search, Taiyo Giken makes fuel pumps for all sorts of engines and applications: m/c's, boats, snowmobiles, ATV's, etc. The manufacturer, Yamaha in this case, will use current fuel pump models from Taiyo Giken or the like, to source pumps that meet their specs or if more of a special application have a new model made. This particular pump looks to be standard stock for Taiyo Giken and fits a range of applications. For Yamaha, they used it on the early XTZ & TDM (3LD-13910-00-00) and the XJ600 and perhaps others too. The 3LD prefix in the Yamaha number was superseded to the 4BR-13910-09-00 (xj600). Yamaha does this after some years to consolidate redundancy in model specific part numbers. The middle 13910 numbers denotes fuel pump. (Sadly I still have way too many of these old numbers in my head from working parts departments back in the 70's and early 80's). It's not a new design, though that can happen too, they just update the part numbers to consolidate all the models it fits. As an example, here is a used XJ600 fuel pump currently on eBay http://www.ebay.com/...1#ht_672wt_1180 He wants $50 bucks for it. I posted this topic to help folks who are looking for an affordable exact replacement fuel pump and did not want to go the electric route or the trial route with unknown materials for a rebuild. It's a direct bolt in unit that lets us work around Yamaha's huge mark up for the same pump.

For me, I've not had a problem with the factory pump and just want to rebuild or replace as its 20 yo now. If it came with a 20 yo electric one, I'd be thinking the same. I run the fuel level down well into reserve all the time and even to as little as 1/10 of a gallon one time. No problems either with sitting for a few days, or weeks, or months like this past winter - it fires right up as it was designed to. The petcock switch to reserve is fine too as I now can feel and hear as well as know from the trip meter when it is nearing switch time. All this pump has to do is lift fuel a few inches when the tank gets below the level of the floats. It's a well proven and pretty simple design that works and works for me. One area of concern is the addition of ethanol to fuel here in the states and compatibility with the materials. I resurrected an '84 Supra last year and it had a failed electric in-tank fuel pump. The rubber had dissolved most likely from sitting in ethanol fuel from the several years prior. I'm thinking that these new stock pumps from Taiyo Giken via Polaris are spec'd for ethanol.

I'm glad the electric R6/R1 carbed fuel pumps are working for your set up and needs. I didn't want this post to become this against that, just to show that there is an affordable option work around for a direct replacement vacuum fuel pump. As mentioned, I looked at the electric option and decided on the original vacuum unit for my needs. It's also a less expensive option than currently listed R6/R1 carbed fuel pumps on US ebay which are running from $75 to $150 and used and 10 yo. I imagine at one time they were not so much, just like MOSFET regulators used to be.

http://www.ebay.com/...1#ht_926wt_1180

http://www.ebay.com/...#ht_2170wt_1180

Hopefully for the folks that want to go the electric route a less expensive option comes along.

BTW Jumaji, I see your on the Gold Coast. I used to live on the range above the Sunshine Coast and ride all over that area and too the North a lot. Great area you have for riding. I had a very memorable overnighter once down to the big caldera in the Mts/hills just to the NW of the Gold Coast. Great twisties and scenery, good eats too. Cheers, Rich

Edited by AdvRich, 14 April 2012 - 09:55 pm.

[AdvRich]

Maybe we need to set up some parts trading then Rich! Do alot of importing from the US of A as I have a Merkin car too.

Whilst listening to the local radio today an ad came on from one of the agric places......they mentioned Polaris. A quick interweb search and I have found the fool pamp at £5 more available from the UK. The pump is much more expensive than your 50 buckeroos but postage is alot less. There may well be cheaper but not that I could find with onlion quotes. Ears the linky dink: http://polaris-parts.com/Welcome

The ebay guy replied to my multi pump enquiry with a detailed response "23.95" ....now if that means dollars then that ain't too bad at all if the dreaded import duty dont hit.

Yeah, that's the ticket! Not sure if that's near you, but it might have a nice ride to and fro as well... sure beats shipping unknowns.

[masterbrewer]

Great work Rich

After recently replacing my carby Needle & Seat assembly on my Mk 1 for a fraction of the price available in Aus ie AUD$170; from Boats.net AUD$ 53 delivered to my door within 10days, I noticed they were advertising their sister company which led me to this extra info;

http://www.powerspor...PP-2520227.html

Hope it helps.

Hey Rich, was your original fuel pump actually shot & if not, was there a noticeable improvement with the Polaris pump over the 20yo original?

Edited by masterbrewer, 10 April 2012 - 10:00 am.

[AdvRich]

Great work Rich

After recently replacing my carby Needle & Seat assembly on my Mk 1 for a fraction of the price available in Aus ie AUD$170; from Boats.net AUD$ 53 delivered to my door within 10days, I noticed they were advertising their sister company which led me to this extra info;

http://www.powerspor...PP-2520227.html

Hope it helps.

Hey Rich, was your original fuel pump actually shot & if not, was there a noticeable improvement with the Polaris pump over the 20yo original?

Right back atchya. Very nice Masterbrewer! That's a good price and should come in a bit less even with the free shipping on the ebay link for US riders and less too for shipping abroad. Plus it'll be an active link long after the ebay one dies out for future reference.

I bought the scoot last autumn and to the best of what I gleamed from the PO, and what he knew from the original owner he bought it from, it is the original pump. The pump worked fine and only had what looks to be an old fuel stain on one side from some time back. I checked the screws and all seemed good. Bike ran fine with the original and no noticeable difference with the new pump. I'm doing some carb tweaks and full rebuilds, including throttle shaft seals, currently and hope to post some of that info soon too. I could do a timed measured output test for each at idle if I find some time, but I'm a bit pressed with house projects as well. Be interesting though and should be close if not the same.

[AdvRich]

Some more info and pics on the Polaris sourced fuel pump option. I forgot to take a pic of mine from the outside before remounting it yesterday. So, here's a pic of the latest version of the stock Yamaha replacement fuel pump for sale by a vender. http://www.partspak....dproduct=165255. It looks from the outside, exactly the same as the new Polaris sourced pump.

When comparing it to the old 3LD XTZ/TDM and 4BR Xj600 pump, the top plate is different as it does not have the vertical mounting boss (which we don't use on the TDM) and there is a stepped rise in the chamber area where the vacuum port enters.


While I had things apart yesterday for some other wrenching, I decided to take a further look inside and compare the old and new.

Old Pump top inside view


New Pump top inside view


The new pump has a broad pad with a spring behind it that rests upon the pump membrane. They may have done this to keep the membrane from stretching as can be seen with the old one.


It may also serve to increase pump efficiency with the rebound effect of the spring. Don't really know , just an idea. The broad pad surely will help to reduce stretching of the membrane over time.

On the flip side, the old pump view. Kinda grungy inside and the gasket got wet while opening it up.


And the new pump looks essentially the same.


I did pry back the edge of the old one for a peek of the plumbing circuits, but did not with the new one to keep it in top shape.


A final pic of the corrosion or fuel deposition occurring between the rubber fuel line and the intake and exhaust ports on the pump. Some as well passed down the fuel line to the filters as there was some residue in the bowls upon the first inspection and cleaning.


I decided to do a comparison pump test between the two and to get an idea of the litres per hour. Sorry no exciting pumping vid to watch while tugging on yea beehr. I forgot to take a pic too , but for a visual, I used the bike for the vacuum source (new lines) while idling and running off my tuning tank for fuel. I hooked each pump up to the vacuum line one at a time and put the intake into a gas can and the output into a catch can. I then measured the output. The pumps had to pull uphill about 8 inches and then the fuel would flow down to the catch can set beside it. The old pump would not prime this way and required some revving and lifting of the gas can to get it going. The old pump also did not leak despite being opened up as in the pics above. It put out 575 ml for 3 minutes or 1.916 liters per minute for 11.5 liters per hour. The new pump required no priming and clearly pumped more fluid. I stopped it at two minutes as it was filling the catch can more than I wanted to deal with. It pumped 700 ml in 2 minutes or 21 litres per minute. It would be nice to have a new 3LD pump to compare to, but this at least gives an idea of what a 20 yo pump is putting out with a stretched membrane. The old pump put out enough fluid to run the bike at full tilt with some carb work I'd done earlier this spring, and down to very low levels of fuel. While it did not prime itself trying to draw fuel uphill, it most likely would with the pressure of fuel in the tank pushing down upon it. The new pump works perfectly without a hitch. Hope this info is of help in deciding the options for fuel pump replacement.

Cheers,
Rich

[Studley Ramrod]

Do you know if there's a pump repair kit available Rich ?