24 replies to this topic

[LewisBlackburn]

Hello again !

for the past few mornings I've had a little trouble starting the bike.

The bike is garaged and I leave the bike charging on a trickle charger overnight. The battery is a pretty new gel battery (less than 6 months old)

When I’m starting it sounds like the battery is really low and is struggling to turn over after a few winds however it kicks in at a very low RPM but with a twang of the throttle bursts into life.

Now at night time after work I've not had a problem starting the bike (6 mile ride to work, left outside in cold and rain for 8 hours) until last night where it did the same as in the mornings only a little prolonged with the turning over.

So
I know from past experience that my first course of action will be to go home (if I get home) and check all terminals, starter solenoid, and I'll look at the reg/rec as a shorted plug on there was my last problem when running.

However, providing I don’t find anything, which I’m betting I don’t, What is my next course of action?


Also just to note I don’t have any issues when running. no lights flickering anything like that. and the battery is charging fine as when i put it on the trickle charge after a minuet or 2 it goes onto trickle mode.
One other thing when starting the bike pops and backfires.

Cheerss

Edited by LewisBlackburn, 13 November 2012 - 01:59 pm.

[Studley Ramrod]

I'd check the battery voltage with a multi-meter instead of relying on the charger as a means to suggest the battery condition.

I dunno if it could be the starter motor brushes or the wiring connection causing the slow turnover ? anyone ?

[dicky1]

A battery can appear OK until you put a load on it
As studley suggests check the battery with a multimeter & check how low the voltage dops when you press the starter button.

You can also do a test with jump leads from a known good battery (from a car if you or a friend have one).

[LewisBlackburn]

I think its time to buy a multimeter then

I've got a spare battery (took it to work with me just incase) and a truck so can try off that if need bee.
I have been warned though that jumping off a running car can knacker a bike battery. something to do with the massive amps in a car battery which can overload the bike ??? sounds logical, dunno if its true or not.

Cheers fellas.

[tdm850rider]

I think its time to buy a multimeter then

I've got a spare battery (took it to work with me just incase) and a truck so can try off that if need bee.
I have been warned though that jumping off a running car can knacker a bike battery. something to do with the massive amps in a car battery which can overload the bike ??? sounds logical, dunno if its true or not.

Cheers fellas.

Car/truck should not be running, the big battery alone is plenty.

[Oil patch]

Hi Lewis, your bike is kitted out with enough electrical stuff to keep your alternator busy, namely
Fitted - Loads of electrical stuff with Secondary fuse box - Rear Fog Light - R&G Heated Grips - Waterproof Cigarette socket on dash - LeeHenty's Oil Pressure Switch - Kappa K960 & K961 Side and Top Boxes (With LED stop and tail lights) .
I'd remove fuses from all these extras and see how your battery likes it's holiday.

[Trotski]

[LewisBlackburn]

I'm terrible at this, Ask for help then never get on with the job in hand. I've been using the truck for the past few weeks and haven't even touched the bike ! its crap on fuel on my 6 mile commute to work, across town i get about 20 - 25MPG so all the more reason to get the bike back running right. I think its the ball ache of getting my gear on all the time with the bike, more so than the cold or wet.

Anyway gonna go out now and finally take a look and maybe treat it to a wash. Then if I've got time take it out for a spin

Hi Lewis, your bike is kitted out with enough electrical stuff to keep your alternator busy, namely
Fitted - Loads of electrical stuff with Secondary fuse box - Rear Fog Light - R&G Heated Grips - Waterproof Cigarette socket on dash - LeeHenty's Oil Pressure Switch - Kappa K960 & K961 Side and Top Boxes (With LED stop and tail lights) .
I'd remove fuses from all these extras and see how your battery likes it's holiday.

Cheers for the suggestions, I will, in a process of elimination try it with the fusebox feeding all these disconnected, however I don't think it'll be the case.

At the moment the socket on the dash isn't connected to anything and when it is only draws power when it is connected to something.
I haven't been riding with the heated grips on as for fear or draining the battery.
The oil pressure switch will draw a minimal amount (light bulb on when theres little or no pressue in the engine).
The top box lights aren't connected at the moment but again are switched so wont be on when I start the bike
and the same with the rear fog.

So although there are a lot of things added on, other than the oil pressure light, nothing should be drawing current when starting.

Car/truck should not be running, the big battery alone is plenty.

Ta, confirms what ave been told, always good to hear it from more than one source


I've tested the battery and its charging and holding charge fine.

So I'll go and check all connectors and clean them up.
see what I find.

Cheers All

Edited by LewisBlackburn, 09 December 2012 - 12:46 pm.

[OldGit]

Battery has loadsa volts but not enough amps?
Happened to my car battery recently, I was sooo close to buying a new starter motor, glad I had the battery checked first....

HTH

Cheers

Nick

[LewisBlackburn]

Battery has loadsa volts but not enough amps?
Happened to my car battery recently, I was sooo close to buying a new starter motor, glad I had the battery checked first....

HTH

Cheers

Nick

That's a good point, I didn't even think to check the ampage, just the voltage.

Any ideas what will be required to start ? and I'll check the sod !

[LDRider]

If you're sure the battery is good, kind of sounds to me like a bad connection, maybe on the battery terminal itself. If the battery was good, but the connections had problems, you could easily see good voltage, bad amperage condition. I'd probably start by making sure the terminal connections were clean and on tight, and then work from there.

And, if the secondary battery is connected to the terminals of the bike battery, and the problem persists, all the more reason to suspect bad connection somewhere. Could also be your starter is failing, but those don't seem to fail much as I recall. Still, it happens.

[OldGit]

Lewis,
not a scooby I'm afraid, sorry....

Cheers

Nick

[Limbo]

The amps of the battery's difficult to measure themselves.
With a car you can find with an acid measuring the state of charge. When a motorcycle is not because the acid is attached or can be sucked too little acid.

A professional amp measurement is measured with a large hot resistance.

The amps a battery is good if you with a lot of consumers are switched on (heated grips, lights, brake lights) can turn the starter vigorously.

Also important is the quality of the battery is measured in the cold, when it is to start the bike.
The battery maybe a chemical power station that does not achieve its full performance in the cold.

With the battery charge overnight and you bring heat into the battery. Later on the street You do not have this advantage.

The battery in the motorcycle is more than 2 years old, I would not have to look for other errors, but first install a new battery.
Do you then still have problems start investigating the electrical system and the carburetor.

Limbo

[LewisBlackburn]

If you're sure the battery is good, kind of sounds to me like a bad connection, maybe on the battery terminal itself. If the battery was good, but the connections had problems, you could easily see good voltage, bad amperage condition. I'd probably start by making sure the terminal connections were clean and on tight, and then work from there.

And, if the secondary battery is connected to the terminals of the bike battery, and the problem persists, all the more reason to suspect bad connection somewhere. Could also be your starter is failing, but those don't seem to fail much as I recall. Still, it happens.

Just gonna try the second battery now, Voltage read at 12.5v cold, and when running reads around 13v. However, I left the multimeter on when starting and the voltage is dropping to anything as low as 4v's -- not good I guess.
Connections from the battery to the solenoid are good, and have been cleaned up just to make sure, nothing more I can do there really.

Lewis,
not a scooby I'm afraid, sorry....
Cheers
Nick

No Probs, Cheers

The amps of the battery's difficult to measure themselves.
With a car you can find with an acid measuring the state of charge. When a motorcycle is not because the acid is attached or can be sucked too little acid.

A professional amp measurement is measured with a large hot resistance.

The amps a battery is good if you with a lot of consumers are switched on (heated grips, lights, brake lights) can turn the starter vigorously.

Also important is the quality of the battery is measured in the cold, when it is to start the bike.
The battery maybe a chemical power station that does not achieve its full performance in the cold.

With the battery charge overnight and you bring heat into the battery. Later on the street You do not have this advantage.

The battery in the motorcycle is more than 2 years old, I would not have to look for other errors, but first install a new battery.
Do you then still have problems start investigating the electrical system and the carburetor.

Limbo

Cheers Limbo,

some good advice there, the battery is just about 6 months old and I purposely spent extra and got a good quality Yuasa one. it shouldn't be the problem, but after the voltage check when starting it certainly could be.

I do have extras on the bike but there all switched, so nothing will be drawing current when starting unless its switched on.



Im up-loading a video now as I'm a bit stuck, The engine is turning over once and then the Solenoid is clicking like mad. Does that mean not enough amps or not enough voltage or both?
Gonna try with the spare battery on there, see what it does and I'll come back to you.

Heres the vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvuvtEV1cYE

Edited by LewisBlackburn, 27 December 2012 - 12:23 pm.

[Limbo]

The video shows and listen to a typical weak battery.

If the battery is bad, or whether it is electrically charged not good can be diagnosed not so.

Limbo

[LewisBlackburn]

Just hooked up the spare battery and it started first time without an issue !

I cant believe it ! Turns out the battery was purchased on the 30/12/2011 ! so its just under a year old, Im now emailing the seller.

2 lessons have been learn here,

1 yuasa batteries don't seem to be all that good after all.
2 listen to people rather than your own stubbornness, When someone tells you its the battery, check it even if its a fairly new one !

[LDRider]

Good news. I would keep an eye on the charging issue (while running the bike). If your charging system is faulty, it won't be long before a new battery is toast (again). Hopefully, you just got a bad battery and your electrical problems are gone for good.

[Limbo]

Batteries are pre-charged today shipped.
Pre-charged Batteries are only limited storable.

Yusa is a good brand .
Your battery may purchase for too long have been in the warehouse.

Batteries must always be charget. A discharged Battererie loses lifetime.

In the winter time I charget my motorcycle battery every month.
The battery in a 900 is discharged after 6 weeks.

Limbo

[Studley Ramrod]

12.5v is considered a flat battery in the Haynes manuel.
I've had my yuasa on for 2 yrs and never ever had a problem, never been put on an optimate and my bike is left out in the winter for a month at a time without starting. My guess is you've been taking more out of the battery than you've put in, probably short runs with heated grips and stuff running.
Sure I read somewhere that it takes 30 minutes of riding to re-charge the battery after it's been used to start the engine from cold.

I'm also sceptical about battery optimisers/chargers, I don't think they charge the battery enough.

[LewisBlackburn]

Good news. I would keep an eye on the charging issue (while running the bike). If your charging system is faulty, it won't be long before a new battery is toast (again). Hopefully, you just got a bad battery and your electrical problems are gone for good.

I had issues with the battery not charging a while back which turned out to be some overheated an fused wires/connections on the rectifier. All cleaned up a while ago and seemed to be charging fine utill this issue. I plan on stripping the wire back and running a fresh piece in there along with a fresh connector.

Batteries are pre-charged today shipped.
Pre-charged Batteries are only limited storable.

Yusa is a good brand .
Your battery may purchase for too long have been in the warehouse.

Batteries must always be charget. A discharged Battererie loses lifetime.

In the winter time I charget my motorcycle battery every month.
The battery in a 900 is discharged after 6 weeks.

Limbo

The battery I purchased came with separate acid which I installed. The battery was then charged overnight.

The battery is charged every night on a trickle charger, so only puts charge in when its needed.

12.5v is considered a flat battery in the Haynes manuel.
I've had my yuasa on for 2 yrs and never ever had a problem, never been put on an optimate and my bike is left out in the winter for a month at a time without starting. My guess is you've been taking more out of the battery than you've put in, probably short runs with heated grips and stuff running.
Sure I read somewhere that it takes 30 minutes of riding to re-charge the battery after it's been used to start the engine from cold.

I'm also sceptical about battery optimisers/chargers, I don't think they charge the battery enough.

You could be right there, but I never used my heated grips or fogs in the morning, I just have the headlights on.
I only use them coming home as I get paranoid that its gonna drain the battery (I did it once on my old battery when it was close to knackered and the charging circuit outa the rectifier was corroded), so that shouldn't have caused the issue of too much draw. I only have fogs and heated grips on there that are used regularly, nothing else is drawing current.
For the moment I'm putting it down to a duff battery, My journey to work is only 15 mins and I know what you mean about short trips and not giving it enough time to fully charge, but up until recently I didn't have any problems. It literally started over night, its not been intermittent, since it started its done it every time. I don't think its been drawing too much but the short trips could have wrecked it.
I got one of them LED thingys that tells you the voltage of your battery but never got round to fitting it, so maybe now would be a good time to do so eh !

I have taken the bike out twice for a good 1 hour run including a good blast along the motorway, when I got home I cut it and then tried to start again and it was the same, it started easier with very little clicking of the solenoid but there was a noticeable hesitation on starting.

When I had issues with the battery not charging before the bike ran crappy, head lights were flickering and were very dim when I stopped at traffic lights and unless revved, the bike would cut out.
There is none of that now and with the battery reading 13.5V when running it suggest to me the charging circuit is fine, and that the battery is just not holding enough amps to crank the sod.

Gonna see what the eBay people say about replacing my battery before I do any more work. It was purchased brand new and is less than a year old so I should be able to claim under warranty, but well have to see. Far as I'm concerned under the sales of goods act the product wasn't fit for purpose.
If i dont get anything then I’ll have to buy a new one.


If I can get some good progress on my XS this summer I'm gonna be doing a full body strip and top end engine rebuild on the TDM next winter, but that's a year away yet.

I miss going to work on my bike even when I do get wet through !



Cheers for everyones help on this, i’ll let you know what they say about the battery.

Edited by LewisBlackburn, 27 December 2012 - 06:48 pm.