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#1 DKM AUTOS

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 12:45 pm

Hi folks

Having only ever had brief flirtations with chain driven bikes before the tdm (big k-series beemer and 900 diversion fan ye see), whenever the prospect of oiling a chain came around, i always stuck with what i thought was best. I used to get the old toothbrush out and after dipping it into old motor oil from previous changes, sparingly apply to chain. My mind was saying 'yes dave, thats it, get into all those nooks and crannys'.

It must do the job right enough as my brothers 1200 trophy got 28k out of his chain doing the same thing. But, ye see, he had a main stand and i have never got more annoyed than arseing around trying to oil it that way with a side stand bike.

So, having heard all the hype and recommendations etc, i decided it was scotolier time - touring kit of course.

But.........how do they work? I know that they are vacum operated but from a man who struggles to tune a tv in let alone has much mechanical knowledge and thinks that instruction books are for wimps, im a bit lost.

My big question is - do you have to use the scotoiler oil to fill it up as i see that as a bit of a con or can you top up the resivoir up with motor oil? Will it still pass through the tubes? How easy are they to get in to top up in the first place and do you have to maintain them?

Also, although i do alot of miles and they seem a worthwhile thing to put on, i like to keep my bike clean and the S/O is making quite a mess along with the fact i dont want to dislodge any of the fixtures and fitting esp on the swingarm when i have a vigerous cleaning sesh!

Oh, the stress. unsure.gif

Edited by DKM AUTOS, 16 June 2007 - 12:47 pm.

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#2 ChrisG

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 02:22 pm

No idea on using other oils in one but there's no way around them making a mess I'm afraid. I've just decided to change my chain after around 25-30,000 miles so they certainly do the job.

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#3 dandywarhol

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 02:51 pm

I tried using chainsaw oil but it's messy stuff and is easily affected by temperature, the Scottoiler fluid seems pretty stable.

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#4 SteveGlover

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 02:56 pm

Lots of questions, DKM!

How does it work? The engine vacuum opens a valve in the main unit (I forget what its called, Metering valve or something), then oil just flows under gravity. Simple suction keeps the main unit filled from the touring reservoir.

As for the mess - try adjusting the drip rate. In summer I usually have it on 1 drip per minute, in winter 2 drips per minute. You'll find that in cold weather you have to adjust the Scott oiler anyhow, because cold oil has a higher viscosity and doesn't flow so well.

Engine Oil - never tried it, I've used about 0.5L of Scott Oil in about 12,000 miles, so it doesn't work out expensive. If you can get engine oil to flow at the 1 - 2 drips per minute then it should be OK, but I think scott Oil is a little thinner (less viscous) than engine oil, so you may not be able to get the correct flow rate.

Only problem I've had was over winter, when the bike was standing for a few weeks. an air bubble formed near to the injector, and the oiler stopped working. The quickest way to fix that is to put the metering valve on "Prime" (full flow), and use a brake vacuum bleeder to suck oil from the injector end until the bubble had gone. If you don't have a vacuum bleeder, then just go for a short ride with the valve on Prime, it should clear it.

#5 muddy

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 02:58 pm

I've used the same Scottoiler on two bikes and would not ride a chain driven bike without one for very long.

As far as using only Scottoiler oil, up until now it's all I have used, but having heard you can use chainsaw oil, I bought some from B&Q for a pittance. However, I've not used it yet, so I can't say difinitively that it will be OK. Actually, before I posted I decided to do a google and came up with this article: http://www.ta-deti.de/ta/chainsaw.html (it's a site I used a lot when I had a TA, good site). It would seem that not all chainsaw oils are equal.

Anyhow a bottle of scottoil, though relatively expensive, lasts a long time. At at least mine has.

On edit. Having read the post here, the other property of scottoiler oil is that it's anti-fling. That means to say it doesn't fly of the chain as fast as it drips onto it.

Edited by muddy, 16 June 2007 - 03:01 pm.

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#6 muddy

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 03:04 pm

Regarding the mess when filling, try using a 10ml syringe. I simply tip some oil into a container, syringe it up and slowly inject it into the chamber. Usually theres not mess. Not the bloody easiest things to fill though.

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#7 TonyDevil

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 04:43 pm

instead of spending £60plus on a scott oiler, try a lubeman (http://www.lubeman.com)
less than £20 delivered and just as good with less to go wrong and easier to fit
just give the bottle a squeeze each time you fill up with fuel
i have a scott oiler on my TDM and a lubeman on my XTZ
i wont go with scottoiler again, too much hassle getting it sorted, i'll be fitting a lubeman to the TRX when i have a chance

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#8 TeDeum

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 06:33 pm

I have heard of people using transmission fluid but have not tried it myself.

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#9 JBX

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 08:42 pm

QUOTE(TeDeum @ Sat 16th Jun 2007, 08:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have heard of people using transmission fluid but have not tried it myself.


I use 80W transmission oil.

Didn't noticed any change of the chain slack since 20 000km !

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#10 robelst

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 11:16 pm

QUOTE(TeDeum @ Sat 16th Jun 2007, 07:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have heard of people using transmission fluid but have not tried it myself.

A friend of mine is a courier and swears by it. He always applies it manually, not using a Scottoiler. It's quite messy and smelly though and a single drop leaves a nasty, long lasting stain on the drive-way.

I always use the Scott-oil fluid. It's not cheap as an oil, but a bottle lasts really long so costs per mile are virtually zero. It works well so why experiment with something else? It would be nice though if Scottoil would give it more a multi-grade character, helpful when it's really cold or really warm.

I wouldn't use chain-saw oil: It's a completely different application from a drive chain so the oil needs to fulfill different needs. For one thing, the oil is too sticky, so won't do much to "rinse" dirt particles from the chain but will instead stick dirt particles on, potentially risking the O or X rings grinding to bits. Still, after that happens the oil will need to take over the lubrication from the grease that will eventually leak out, in which case a certain stickyness could become more useful rolleyes.gif
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#11 David H

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Posted 17 June 2007 - 12:00 am

QUOTE(Toneski @ Sat 16th Jun 2007, 05:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
instead of spending £60plus on a scott oiler, try a lubeman (http://www.lubeman.com)
less than £20 delivered and just as good with less to go wrong and easier to fit
just give the bottle a squeeze each time you fill up with fuel
i have a scott oiler on my TDM and a lubeman on my XTZ
i wont go with scottoiler again, too much hassle getting it sorted, i'll be fitting a lubeman to the TRX when i have a chance



Loobman.

DIY job on ebay.

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#12 Pict

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Posted 17 June 2007 - 06:03 am

Interesting good.gif

Also, good link to Riders for Health, which I must look into.

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#13 SteveGlover

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Posted 17 June 2007 - 06:40 am

QUOTE(robelst @ Sun 17th Jun 2007, 12:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It would be nice though if Scottoil would give it more a multi-grade character, helpful when it's really cold or really warm.

You wouldn't have to adjust the flow rate for different temperatures. good.gif
Scott also do a "high temperature" version for hot climates.
For manual lubing I have, in the past, used an EP140 oil (steering rack oil for an old Riley) which didn't fling off as easily as engine oil.

#14 robelst

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Posted 17 June 2007 - 01:50 pm

QUOTE(SteveGlover @ Sun 17th Jun 2007, 07:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Scott also do a "high temperature" version for hot climates.

I wonder what Scotts consider to be a "hot climate" rolleyes.gif
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Posted 17 June 2007 - 02:35 pm

There was one on my TDM when I got it and thought the same as you, that it was going to be expensive, but the fact is that a 500ml bottle cost me about a £5 or £6 and has lasted me about 10000 miles and in since putting a new chain on 8000 miles ago have not had to adjust it yet. So in reduced chain wear alone it pays for itself but it also works out cheaper than buying chian lube every month.
Mess, what mess?, 2 drips a minute and all you should get is a thin film on one side of the rear wheel, if you wash every week you shouldn't even notice it.
When you buy a bottle of oil it should come with a filling tube, insert plastic end into filling hole and squeeze bottle, when full, withdraw tube, plug hole and hey presto, no mess.
Ease of filling depends on wherer you site them, but if your HCR is behind your number plate then it should be easy.

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#16 ChrisG

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Posted 17 June 2007 - 03:53 pm

QUOTE(celticbiker @ Sun 17th Jun 2007, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
if you wash every week you shouldn't even notice it.


Ah, that's probably why it looks like mine makes a bit of a mess then. blush.gif

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#17 Guest_blarsen_*

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Posted 18 June 2007 - 07:48 am

QUOTE(Toneski @ Sat 16th Jun 2007, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
instead of spending £60plus on a scott oiler, try a lubeman (http://www.lubeman.com)
less than £20 delivered and just as good with less to go wrong and easier to fit


http://www.loobman.com

Thanks for the tip. I ordered one. If it works as well as you claim I'll be ordering another one for the GS as well.

#18 danceswithmopeds

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Posted 18 June 2007 - 01:47 pm

Last few bikes I've had, I had my own home made oiler fitted (big 50cl syringe and length of very narrow plastic tubing). Biggest problem was forgetting to switch off oil flow, and finding big puddle of oil on garage floor, but it worked well with a great selection of whatever was lying untended in work.
One puddle too many, so 'Loobman' ordered today. Looks OK, simple but effective.

#19 Andy850

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Posted 18 June 2007 - 04:38 pm

I use Chain Wax. The largest can is $12 (6 pounds). It stays dry so it does not attract dirt and no mess, and stays on for a while - recommended spray on interval is 600mi. Very simple to put on - just like WD-40.

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#20 E-njoy

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Posted 19 June 2007 - 03:11 pm

Don't go for scottoiler, it's way too primitive. It will lube too little when the altitudes become higher and too much when the days warm up. There is no speed nor temperature correction, which gives a huge impact on the amount of drip you need. In order to compensate for that you do need to set it way too rich and you indeed would need a touring version with that huge reservoir.

Go for CLS (German) or Pro-Oiler (English-Belgian), which are both A LOT more efficient than the scottoiler. The small 250 ml reservoir from CLS (there is also a 150 ml or 500 ml version) will have about the same to about double endurance as that huge half liter reservoir from scottoiler which you have to mount somewhere externally. With CLS and Pro-oiler available I seriously think you shouldn't even consider a scottoiler anymore, at least not until they update their product.

Here's a piece of text I wrote earlier to another list and which I posted before on this forum (just search for pro oiler to find related threads) which will give you more technical details. So far (14.000km) I still love the CLS on the TDM, I think it used about ca. 150 ml of oil in those 14.000 km (bottle of oil included in the kit, should last for at least 40.000 km). Having had mainly shaft bikes the oiler was important for me too (see signature). My Sprint ST had a Pro-Oiler, the TDM a CLS Speed. Anyway, the text:

QUOTE
There are two alternatives I would consider if I were you that are,
in my opinion, much better than the scottoiler. There is the pro-oiler
(as mentioned by iPat, see link above) made by an English guy living
in Belgium, as well as the German CLS Chain Lubrication System.
I have not had a scottoiler myself. I had a pro-oiler on my Sprint ST
( http://piloot.smugmu.../gallery/412667 ) and have now mounted
myself a CLS Speed on my TDM900A:
http://piloot.smugmu...gallery/1862088

Here's a comparison of the three systems:


Scottoiler http://www.scottoiler.com
- Connects to vacuum system of bike to determine engine running.
- Drip is done by gravity
- Drip rate is dependent on flow screw
- No density / rate correction for speed, temperature change or weather

Pro-oiler http://www.pro-oiler.com
- Connects to battery and electronic speedo (or reed switch) to determine
engine running and speed
- Drip is done by electric oil pump
- Drip rate is regulated and corrected automatically by electronics
(which determines the operating sequence of the oil pump) and can be
adjusted while riding with electronic control in dash
- Automatic correction for speed, temperature. Weather correction (rain,
dust, salt) can, if needed, be done with control box in the dashboard /
on steering bar

CLS Speed / CLS 200 http://www.cls200.com
- Connects to battery and reed switch (speed version) to determine
engine running and speed
- Drip is done by gravity
- Drip rate is regulated and corrected automatically by electronics
(which determines opening sequence of a magnetic switch-valve in the
control box) and can, if needed, be adjusted with a turn knob in dash
- Automatic correction for speed, temperature. Weather correction (rain,
dust, salt) can, if needed, be done with control box in the dashboard
(or elsewhere on the bike)

The main difference between both pro-oiler and CLS compared to the scottoiler,
as you can see, is that they both correct for temperature and (CLS Speed
version) also for speed. These corrections have a significant effect on the
efficiency of the oilers, in comparison with the much more primitive scottoiler.

As an example, the viscosity of the oil, when the temperature outside changes
from 10 to 30 degrees Celsius (not very uncommon to happen within a few hours
when riding in the mountains or on very clear summer days), changes 410%!
Even when the temperature changes from just 20 to 25 degrees C the oil flow
in a scottoiler will double. If you are riding up mountain passes there is
a big chance that a scottoiler won't drip anything anymore when higher up
because of the temperature decrease.

The same story about the speed of course. A scottoiler will drip X times
per minute, whether it's splitting lanes at 30 km/h (or even standing still)
or riding the Autobahn towards those Alps at 180 km/h. Dutch police have
used scottoilers (on Honda Transalp and such), but the guys end up with
a puddle of oil anytime they've finished writing their fines (engine and
radio still on).

The effect of the inefficiency of the scottoiler can easily been seen in
the oil usage (depending on settings and weather). If you have the huge
High Capacity Reservoir from scottoiler (400cc, almost a half liter bottle),
which usually is mounted externally behind the number plate because of its
size, you will have enough oil for 6000 to 12000 km. The CLS 200 / CLS speed
has a choice of bottles; 150ml / 250ml / 500ml. The 500 ml (also filled up
with around 400cc) will last ca. 22000 km. So that's 2 to 4 times longer
with the same oil! That translates into a much cleaner rear wheel, no oil
puddles under the bike and a small 250ml bottle under the saddle (the one
I'm using now) which should last at least 10.000 km (for the CLS). The CLS
package includes a liter of specially selected and tested oil which should
last around 50.000 km. I'm guessing that most scottoiler users are afraid
of running their chain dry and will set it too rich to be sure, so in
practice the oil usage might even be higher (I guess... don't know though).

So with a Pro-oiler or CLS (Speed) system you have the following advantages:
- Oil lasts around 3 times longer
- Cleaner rear wheel
- No oil puddles
- No running out of oil during mountain riding
- No running out of oil when the evening starts cooling the air
- Not oil waste when riding through heavy traffic
- No huge reservoir or refills needed for a weeks trip
- Ability to set richer or leaner setting even while riding

The difference between the Pro-oiler and the CLS Speed is smaller:

The pro-oiler is hugely customizable. You can, but unfortunately also have to,
set all parameters for everything. It doesn't matter whether you are riding a
mini bike or a dragster with a mile of chain, you can program it in there.
That's also a disadvantage because for the average person it is a very
complicated unit at first. Once it is all set though and once you have
learned which calibration table works best, you can forget about most
tweaking and just enjoy riding. Some people occasionally have problems
with the oil pump though, usually solved with a WD40 cleaning-blast procedure.
The control box and wiring is also very customizable, meaning you have to wire
and connect it yourself depending on how you wish to use the system and on what
kind of speed measurement you choose to use. That also means the control box is
not sealed and prone to corrode a bit, something I had a few problems with until
I figured it out and cleaned the connections inside the control box. So the
pro-oiler wins if you want the ability to set everything according to your whishes,
but it is not very user friendly to program and it is quite a job to install and
connect. I'm not sure it would be easier with a scottoiler though since you need to
connect that with engine parts.

The CLS Speed is very user friendly though and much more designed for the
actual practice of everyday, all weather riding (tested also by German guys
riding across the world off road). There is no oil pump to worry about because
it works on gravity. There is only one control box with also incorporates the
magnetic switch, which is very sturdy and completely sealed in synthetic resin,
so it's weather proof as well. The oil reservoir is also more user friendly,
being able to mount horizontally. The switch, which can be mounted in the dash,
is round, so just a small hole is needed. You can also mount it in between frame
tubes or so, a holder is included if needed. There is also a very easy, yet solid,
connecting plug in between the rotating switch and the cable in case you need to
remove fairing pieces for maintenance. There is no programming needed since the
settings are good for any normal motorcycle already. You only need to initially
set the drip rate with a screw-flow-selector, depending on the temperature. Once
set, the electronics will compensate for temperature and speed changes from that
point on. The one armed dripping arm is also set up in a way that makes it very
easy to adjust.

So the CLS is much easier to install, set up and operate. And it is more
durable thanks to its simplicity, without loosing on efficiency compared
to the Pro-oiler. I mounted the CLS myself on the TDM which wasn't very hard
as long as you're sure to route the oil line and reed-switch wire in a way
that it won't be stressed by the rear suspension or chain which depends
on the bike of course.

I asked the main CLS guy and designer Heiko, whom I met during an international
V-storm gathering in eastern Germany, about the choice of 1 versus 2 drip arms.
He was also very interested in the Pro-oiler system I had on my Sprint at the
time (spring this year). I also asked him why pro-oiler uses regular motor oil
but his CLS uses special oil. About the oil he says he tested a huge range of
oils, including regular motor oil. But motor oil he found not sticky enough and
too dirty in some ways, it would run of the chain cylinders quicker than the
oil he eventually chose. About the double arm he said it wasn't really needed.
The capillary forces would make the oil stick on the cylinders in the chain and
from there on the oil would flow out to cover the seals on both sides between
those cylinders and the linking plates of the chain. He even said it didn't really
matter to set the oiler richer in rain, since it would be lubed by water, although
the oil still has a function to clean the dirt that comes with it from the seals.
It's obvious he wanted a system that would have the best result but with the most
simplistic and durable solution. I was impressed enough to consider the CLS for
my next bike, which I eventually did a few months later, even though I was pleased
overall with the pro-oiler.

All in all, all three systems incl the scottoiler will make sure your chain
lasts a lot longer and they'll in between chain maintenance (tensioning, cleaning,
lubing etc) a thing of the past. The scottoiler is the most primitive system
by far and the most expensive as well since it uses special, expensive oil and
a lot of it. The Pro-oiler and CLS are intelligent systems, making them much
more efficient and cleaner. My nudge goes to the CLS system, but I wouldn't have
problems riding a ton of kilometers with a pro-oiler either. At least you can make
a more informed decision now :-).











Edited by E-njoy, 19 June 2007 - 03:14 pm.

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