278 replies to this topic

[fixitsan]

My 2stroke lawnmower fired up on the second pull last week....been laid up for 8 months....and its 30 years old.... old school still works !

If you're getting a PC3 tune it after advancing the timing....or else it might not be too good

Edited by fixitsan, 26 May 2016 - 11:16 am.

[frits44]

My understanding is that the air temperature sensor does not work correctly in its standard position in slow traffic - it does not read the temperature of the air in the airbox, but is instead heated by the engine underneath and therefore adjusts the fuel to air ratio inappropriately.  If it is to properly read the temperature of the incoming air, it makes sense to move it to Frits' location away from the engine heat.  Have I misunderstood?

 

Because of the engine heat the hole air box and the sensor becomes too hot 44 celsius up too 50 celsius in slow city traffic.

 

Thats why I want the IAT sensor in a cooler place, so It can measure the real air inlet temperature.

 

But I have done al the work for nothing, the relocation does not work in the inlet of the cover air box.

 

Why, because there is too must heat from the engine and lots of hot air comes in the air inlet of the air box.

 

So after a some tests  and after 280 km today I did measure 4 times the air  temperature in my cover air box 36 celsius on the highway 

 

and 45 celsius in the slow city traffic. It makes no difference to relocate the IAT sensor.

 

I am testing now  the AIT sensor in the front of my bike, the weather was nice today and 23 celsius. 

 

The IAT sensor in the front of my bike measured  23 celsius.

 

It is  a HUGE difference in smoothness   power and  acceleration and so much more FUN TOO DRIVE.

 

The bike is really much faster when the IAT sensor is out of the air box and away from the engine heat.

 

I have 2 IAT sensors so it was easy for my to switch.

 

You all must try it, if it is only for FUN  and you will notice the HUGE difference 

 

Greetings, Frits from Holland

 

 

Frits you make me feel guilty

 

This is my electric bike - no low speed lunging, even from 0rpm !

 

 

 

 

I made the battery using old, 'brioken' laptop batteries. Lots of work but it was worth it. Here is the assmebly and testing

 

 

 

With electric vehicles, when their battery is considered to be 'dead' it still has usually 60-70% of it's original capacity, so one good use for them is as a storage sytem for renewable energy, for when the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9KVD9ZGdgo&spfreload=10

DO YOU HAVE FUN WITH IT???

 

You only live ones, live your live and do nice and funny things.

 

Greetings, Frits from Holland

[fixitsan]

Yeah its all fun

I'm still concerned enough not to move the IAT though. I think the benefit you experience is a result of a more rich AFR. But there ought to be some temperature compensation. ....so today i ordered a few thermistors to test...this will also give more fuel but with a nod to temperature compensation.

[fixitsan]

When the radiator cooling fan switches on there will be plenty of hot air there too Not only then, but on the highway, the radiator sheds heat to the air going into the airbox.

What we need is a very small but efficient intercooler !

[frits44]

When the radiator cooling fan switches on there will be plenty of hot air there too Not only then, but on the highway, the radiator sheds heat to the air going into the airbox.

What we need is a very small but efficient intercooler !

 

Good morning fixitsan,

 

About the IAT sensor just try it to put it out side your air box, just give it a try please.

 

Than you will now what I mean, you can always put it back in stock place.

 

The lambda sonde will take care of the fuel and air mix.

 

It is not much difference now only  13 degrees celsius.

 

And it is much better, than the 6 K Ohm resistance I had.

 

About the hot air, I am thinking too guide cold air from the out side in with some tubes or so.

 

I am going too test some things, air snorkels from a goldwing gl 1500  for example 

 

There is place  beside and above the oil tank,  there must the cold air come in.

 

Have a nice day,

 

Greetings, Frits from Holland

[frits44]

Yeah its all fun

I'm still concerned enough not to move the IAT though. I think the benefit you experience is a result of a more rich AFR. But there ought to be some temperature compensation. ....so today i ordered a few thermistors to test...this will also give more fuel but with a nod to temperature compensation.

 

Only when you driving on the highway the temperature drops a little bit, but with slow drive it rises very quickly.

 

The room under the fuel tank is VERY small, also the room under the air box is VERY small

 

There is  too much hot air from the cooler and from the engine that comes in the air box inlet.

 

The IAT sensor in stock place is NOT good, the ECU becomes much too lean you know that.

 

You can buy  a second  IAT sensor like I did for some testing ??

 

But we test things and we will solve it, there is always a solution.

 

Have a nice day,

 

Greetings, Frits from Holland.

[fixitsan]

I believe what you say is true Frits, that the bike will run smoother with the IAT mounted externally.

 

What I still believe is that the IAT sensor should be able to change value in response to changes in intake air temperature, so mounting it elsewhere does not suit my feelings.

 

A 6k resistor is not good, it would always make the AFR the same as for 0 Celsius approximately, and never change in response to changes in temperature.

 

I am going to use a 1k Thermistor, in series with the IAT sensor, this will mean that it always changes value with temperature, and the ECU sees a temperature of 5 - 8 degrees celsius lower than the actual temperature. This is a small % change but can make a large difference in behaviour

 

Like you, lastnight I started to think that the best solution for someone experiencing a problem like this, poor response in traffic in high heat, is to find a way  to direct cold fresh air up to the tank. But I don't really get this problem myself (low average air temperature)....but when I am in traffic and the cooling fan comes on i do notice  weaker performance when pulling away.

Edited by fixitsan, 27 May 2016 - 07:33 am.

[frits44]

Fixitsan,

 

My external IAT sensor changes now with the weather temperature.

 

The difference in celsius is not much when the out side temperature is getting warmer, compare to the temperature in site the air box.

 

Today new test drive, external IAT sensor 23 celsius in side IAT sensor 38 celsius.

 

So I am almost doing the same as you do if you want to use the 1k Thermistor.

 

To find a way for cold air up to your tank is only useful when you are driving, when you stop with running engine the heat comes on.

 

I am also thinking about this foam filters, take away the complete air box and install these foam filters with long tubes on it.

 

Much more room and air maybe it is cooler then. If you take away the air box the heat can move faster away from the engine.

 

It is an example,  larger foam filters then on the pics. 

 

What do you think ?????

 

http://www.amazon.co...2/dp/B00L3O0ZDE

 

Greetings, Frits from Holland 

[fixitsan]

Frits it isn't something for me.

 

IAT.....Airbox

23.....33

23.....39

23.....26

 

In all cases, no matter what the temperature inside the airbox, the ECU sets the fuel output for 23 celsius. But with a difference between 26 celsius and 39 celsius in the airbox, there should be some change in fueling

 

I think though, that for the short time the engine will be running so far out of of ideal conditions, just a short while, only when idling in traffic, then it isn't disastrous , it won't cause a problem too much.

 

But then remember when the cold weather comes, that you will get wind chill on the IAT......then things are different again....perhaps that is when the ECU uses coolant temperature more as an indication, to prevent the mixture being too rich

 

 

As for pod filters, lots of people fit them to lots of bikes, it's personal choice.... not something I would consider personally.

 

 

For cold air I have some small and powerful centrifugal fans, which used to blow cold air into army radio sets.......very very powerful and small.....but is it all worth the bother to me ? I'm not so sure

Edited by fixitsan, 27 May 2016 - 02:46 pm.

[JBX]

To be honest, I really don't see the problem you seem to experience with the temperature sensor in high temperature weather.

I don't think we have the same experience of riding with a high temperature weather.

From my own experience with an air temperature well above 40°C (afair 47°C), there is no bad effect on the engine behavior, even at slow speeds in urban traffic.

It's sometimes very hot here, but I also went to Morocco and it was even worse there.

Actually the main problem in hot weather is with the rider !

 

 

Another thing : the engine cannot be started when entering the DIAG mode.

This is mainly because the DIAG mode not only allows to read sensors, it also allows to check various active devices like the fuel-pump, the injectors, the spark plugs...

Edited by JBX, 27 May 2016 - 05:51 pm.

[frits44]

Frits it isn't something for me.

 

IAT.....Airbox

23.....33

23.....39

23.....26

 

In all cases, no matter what the temperature inside the airbox, the ECU sets the fuel output for 23 celsius. But with a difference between 26 celsius and 39 celsius in the airbox, there should be some change in fueling

 

I think though, that for the short time the engine will be running so far out of of ideal conditions, just a short while, only when idling in traffic, then it isn't disastrous , it won't cause a problem too much.

 

But then remember when the cold weather comes, that you will get wind chill on the IAT......then things are different again....perhaps that is when the ECU uses coolant temperature more as an indication, to prevent the mixture being too rich

 

 

As for pod filters, lots of people fit them to lots of bikes, it's personal choice.... not something I would consider personally.

 

 

For cold air I have some small and powerful centrifugal fans, which used to blow cold air into army radio sets.......very very powerful and small.....but is it all worth the bother to me ? I'm not so sure

 

Thanks for the answer,

 

I am going too test other filters just too try it.

 

Maybe it helps I do not no, so I give it a try.

 

About the IAT sensor for me it is better out side the air box, it gives you more power and much better acceleration.

 

Fuel consumption with my bike is still  1 liter fuel on 23 km, so that is very good.

 

And my coolant temperature does not rise up very quickly any more, so thats better too.

 

Again thanks,

 

Greetings, Frits from Holland

[frits44]

To be honest, I really don't see the problem you seem to experience with the temperature sensor in high temperature weather.

I don't think we have the same experience of riding with a high temperature weather.

From my own experience with an air temperature well above 40°C (afair 47°C), there is no bad effect on the engine behavior, even at slow speeds in urban traffic.

It's sometimes very hot here, but I also went to Morocco and it was even worse there.

Actually the main problem in hot weather is with the rider !

 

 

Another thing : the engine cannot be started when entering the DIAG mode.

This is mainly because the DIAG mode not only allows to read sensors, it also allows to check various active devices like the fuel-pump, the injectors, the spark plugs...

 

JBX, 

 

I was worried about the heat air in the air box, because colt air is better.

 

I know that I can not  change everything, but I am trying too make it better so I am testing things.

 

I did not know that the engine cannot be started in DIAG mode, Thanks for the answer.

 

Again thanks,

 

Greetings, Frits from Holland

[fixitsan]

 

JBX, 

 

I was worried about the heat air in the air box, because colt air is better.

 

I know that I can not  change everything, but I am trying too make it better so I am testing things.

 

I did not know that the engine cannot be started in DIAG mode, Thanks for the answer.

 

Again thanks,

 

Greetings, Frits from Holland

 

 

With extra airflow in the opened airbox, some extra fuel won't do much harm.....

[JBX]

JBX, 

I was worried about the heat air in the air box, because colt air is better.

I know that I can not  change everything, but I am trying too make it better so I am testing things.

I did not know that the engine cannot be started in DIAG mode, Thanks for the answer.

Again thanks,

Greetings, Frits from Holland

 

Cold air is not "better", it is just more dense than hot air and requires more fuel to have the right AFR.

This is why you have that IAT sensor on injected bikes.

 

I remember a long time ago as a teenager my 125cc two strokes was more efficient at night with cooler air !

This was the case because with carbs you didn't have any temperature / pressure sensor - actually no sensor at all.

 

Don't get me wrong, I do not say experimenting is useless - I did it on the 9er on the first years and I think it's up to everyone to built his own experience - but now after 14 years of ownership I know better what can be done on this bike to improve it and what I've found to be just a waste of time.

[frits44]

Good morning JBX,

 

I know that the air that comes in the engine, is much cooler then the engine.( air 40 celsius, engine 80 celsius.)

 

I want too know my bike better and learn how it al works with a TDM 900.

 

There are so many stories, so I have too find out myself.

 

The stock bike in my case was bad, a lot of jerky below 4000 rpm.

 

So I did some tests and I found it, the modification on the cover air box it helps 100%. 

 

I put the co settings higher not 20/20 like most people do, no I did c1 50 c2 50 and it works great on my machine. Co in my exhaust 4,75%. It helps 100%

 

I did remove the air induction system and the engine became calmer so and much less popping in my exhaust. it helps 100%

 

I did the IAT sensor relocation and it helps for me it is nice to have some extra horse power it is not much and it will not harm the engine just like 

 

fixidsan is saying.( IAT sensor out side the air box and in front of the bike)

 

What I mean is, I did ask people to help me solve the jerkiness and nobody give the wright answers.

 

So I did it myself reading and testing things how it all works.

 

I also know that the modification on the air box cover is the best modification for a TDM 900, it becomes a very nice machine with this mod.

 

Again I respect everybody  and it is very nice to work on your machine like I did.

 

I thank everyone for the help and for the info.

 

Have a nice day.

 

Sorry for my bad english 

 

Greetings, Frits from Holland.

[celticbiker]

I've been following this post with interest as the theory of a more open air box is sound but the methodology employed in the testing is somewhat chaotic.

As my engine has been tuned and having no O2 sensor and running a PC and not having access to an exhaust gas analyser I didn't want to open the air box as drastically as you two but do think that increased airflow has to help.

I had a look at an airbox I got off ebay (£20) and decided it could be opened up enough to increase air flow without the drastic work you two have done.

While the inlet does create a restriction, it's the air flap seating plate that reduces the intake area the most.

 

 

By sticking a screwdriver under the panel and popping off the plastic rivets

 

 

It can easily be removed.

 

 

Then a few more holes added

 

 

Externally the airbox looks the same and the airflow in and around the engine bay is maintained so the correct temperature air (as far as the manufactured design in concerned) entering the airbox is still maintained.

 

 

I have increased the CO settings by 10 but think they could probably go a little more but will do this on a dyno run as not having a sensor means the ecu can't auto adjust for a lean mixture.

 

Results.

While the results of any modification are always subjective without independent testing this is what I have found.

Low end pick up is quicker and smoother but there is still a small lag (about .75 seconds) which is annoying.

Mid range acceleration is much stronger and runs right to the red line now without tailing off, 

Another bonus is that the engine brake has reduced by about half which means I can hold off on that slipper clutch I was going to buy.

 

Just for fun, here's a video of my ride home first 29 minutes in traffic then country roads, I get to do this every day too (90 mile round trip)

Apologies for the jerkiness of the video, you tube did that.

 

Edited by celticbiker, 28 May 2016 - 09:20 am.

[fixitsan]

 
The lag all but disappeared for me when i advanced the ignition timing
 
Anyway, your video....first you make me  miss my Alfa 159 (there's a red one as you leave the estate at the start).....then you need to explain what lane you're on going over the bridge, looks fun !

[celticbiker]

That lane is for cyclists really but bikes can use it if the bridge is closed for maintenance or 125's are ok and if the traffic is particularly busy like that day they don't really mind either.

[fixitsan]

Thats great...we need more of that flexibility !

[frits44]

Celticbiker nice job you did,

 

Now do this tests:

 

1. test ride without the cover of your air box, tape the air filter.

 

2. CO test: drive in every gear on 2000 rpm, and feel the bike how its running

    if the bike in 6 gear is jerky your CO is too low, go up with 5 or 10 points in the Co settings on both cylinders till it it gone.

    the bike can do it, go easy on the throttle. 

 

Do not forget you have a old type TDM 900, the ECU of your bike is richer on the fuel than my bike. My bike is 2012 model and very lean in the ECU.

Older models run much better.

 

3. Go test ride in the save modes of the ECU, in your display you can go too the CO settings open the CO settings  and choose C1 or C2.

 

 do not close it.start your engine and go for a test ride, now you will feel how your bike must be and it does not harm the engine.

 

You have now simple tests you can do yourself, 

 

I did this the same way to test things.

 

Greetings, Frits