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Low(Ish) Speed Lunging/surging


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#241 frits44

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Posted 21 June 2016 - 09:59 pm

PM91 and JBX thanks for the help.

 

Today I checked my TPS sensor and I had 15 to 97 in diag mode , I tried to adjust the TPS sensor to 100.

I can not get 100 on the TPS sensor so I did buy a new TPS sensor, 3P6-85885-00

Now I have 17 to 100 on my new TPS sensor( DIAG MODE )

I also did measure the new TPS sensor and this one is also 2.43 K Ohm.

I also tested the begin value on the yellow wire pin 3, closed throttle it is 0.75 volt ( 0.53- 0.83 )

I did test ride with my new TPS sensor and it runs great.

 

 

Again thanks for the help.

 

Greetings , Frits from holland



#242 frits44

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Posted 22 June 2016 - 08:10 am

Good morning,

 

I think Yamaha makes a mistake with the value or numbers on the sensors TPS sensor and the IAT sensor.

 

The TPS sensor 3P6-85885-00 max resistance 4- 6 K Ohm by yamaha in the manual.

 

I measured it 3 times and the max resistance is 2.43 K Ohm also the new one I have in my bike is 2.43 K Ohm.

 

Also  the IAT sensor DENSO 179700-0110 value by yamaha is 450-550 Ohm at 20 degrees celsius.( manual page 454 )

 

This is not true, the value at 20 degrees celsius is 2.40 K Ohm on the IAT sensor.( I also measured this 3 times )

 

I do not know what yamaha is telling us, but some numbers are wrong here.

 

I did buy my bike oktober 2015 with 0 miles on it, so new bike.( model 2010 black ).

 

After all the mods I did my bike runs great. The jerky and on off effect are 100% gone.

 

Thanks for the help

 

Have a nice day 

 

Greetings, Frits from Holland



#243 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 22 June 2016 - 08:52 am

Maybe the early TPS values (when the manual was written) were different to the later ones ?


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#244 JBX

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Posted 22 June 2016 - 04:38 pm

The 2002 workshop manual indicates 4k - 6k max value, all more recent manual also indicate the same value.

The FJR manual (with part number 3P6-85885-00) indicates... 4k - 6k max value !

The first FRJ had a TPS part number 5PS-85885-00.

The YZF-R1 (2004) manual also indicates 4k - 6k max value (main & sub TPS).

The YZF-R1 (2007) manual indicates 2k - 3k max value.

 

Afaik most Yamaha bikes which have a TPS had issues related to a premature wear of the variable resistor, and were subject to a safety recall.

 

Here is a good write-up of the description of a TPS :

http://www.fjrforum....ps/#entry148013


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#245 JBX

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Posted 23 June 2016 - 12:46 am

I just checked the TPS maximum resistance value : 4.96KΩ

Glad I found the standard value !

 

As a reminder : the resistance must be checked with the TPS unplugged.

This is very important, otherwise the value will be biased by the other sensors.

I suspect this is the reason why some folks here don't have the correct value.

 

Then I checked the DIAG mode, it showed min-max values : 11-95.

I had to adjust it, it was a pita, I had to remove the four screws to release the throttle body assembly and with my third hand I made sure none of these screws felt inside the intake pits !


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#246 arthurbikemad

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Posted 23 June 2016 - 07:54 am

Good old JBX :)

 

They are hard to test correctly! i.e chart them at each 1deg. I have a SnapOn diag that does just that, there are even companies who offer TESTED TPS sensors as they can often throw up spikes from new.

 

 

How about a little project for you, Arduino?

 


Edited by arthurbikemad, 23 June 2016 - 08:02 am.

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#247 frits44

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Posted 23 June 2016 - 11:21 am

JBX,

 

Something is wrong, I do not know what it is but I checked my TPS sensor again also my new multimeter.

I checked on pin 1 and 2 like you said on your website 

 

 

 

Greetings, Frits from holland



#248 adamg

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Posted 23 June 2016 - 11:36 am

If the ECU produces a linear response from circa 17 to 98, then isn't the TPS doing its job whatever the resistance values?



#249 frits44

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Posted 23 June 2016 - 11:44 am

If the ECU produces a linear response from circa 17 to 98, then isn't the TPS doing its job whatever the resistance values?

adamg, 

 

It is good, I do not understand the different numbers.

But my bike runs great.

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Greetings, Frits from holland



#250 JBX

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Posted 23 June 2016 - 08:31 pm

Good old JBX :)

 

They are hard to test correctly! i.e chart them at each 1deg. I have a SnapOn diag that does just that, there are even companies who offer TESTED TPS sensors as they can often throw up spikes from new.

 

 

How about a little project for you, Arduino?

 

 

I want one like this !

 

JBX,

 

Something is wrong, I do not know what it is but I checked my TPS sensor again also my new multimeter.

I checked on pin 1 and 2 like you said on your website 

 

Greetings, Frits from holland

 

Did you mean you checked the resistance with two different ohm-meters ?

 

Maybe this meter was built for the UK market and gives resistance values in imperial ohms...

 

 

If the ECU produces a linear response from circa 17 to 98, then isn't the TPS doing its job whatever the resistance values?

 

You're right, but this max resistance problem is very strange and I'd like to know the end of the story !


Edited by JBX, 23 June 2016 - 08:33 pm.

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#251 frits44

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Posted 23 June 2016 - 09:48 pm

JBX,

 

I did buy my new multimeter a view weeks ago, I did check my  multimeter with my local dealer to measure the new TPS sensor.

And I used the multimeter from my local dealer the see that the value is the same, so my multimeter is good.

Maybe it has do with the new ECU like you said, the new models TDM 900 2007 and up have a new and leaner ECU.

I do not no this, but it is also strange to me the different values.

Maybe the old TPS sensors are different, and also the ECU

My local dealer uses this TPS sensor also on the dutch police bikes FJR 1300, he was telling me this. ( 3P6-85885-00 )

 

My old and my new TPS sensor give the same value. ( 3P6-85885-00 )  2.42 K Ohm.

 

It is also strange that the value of the IAT sensor is different. Yamaha is telling us 450-550 ohm with 20 degrees celsius

I measured 2.40 K Ohm at 20 degrees celsius IAT sensor DENSO 179700-0110

 

Greetings, Frits from Holland



#252 Bjørge

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 06:52 am

It may be that the resistance doesn't matter:

- A TPS is basically a potentiometer, and if you apply a voltage of, say, 10V across it, the voltage between one endpoint and the slider will be 0-10V as you turn the potentiometer.

 

The only way the total resistance will come into play, is that load you attach to the "output"; A 1kohm load will actually make the voltage unlinear relative to the rotation, but still give 0-10V.

An incompatible TPS could at worst give unlinear input, the consequences I wouldn't know.

 

Chances are good 2.42, 4, 6 or even 1 kohms won't matter.


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#253 frits44

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 07:04 am

Bjorge good morning,

 

Maybe  yamaha made a mistake in the workshop manuel by telling us the TPS sensor is 4-6 K Ohm instead of 2.42 K Ohm.

I do not know, my bike runs great so it is good for me.

 

Have a nice day

 

Greetings, Frits from holland



#254 JBX

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 10:41 pm

This evening I measured the IAT sensor : 2.3KΩ @25°C, instead of ~500Ω @ 20°C (Workshop Manual) !

 

I suspect this is actually the same temperature sensor than the water temperature sensor, as the latter is rated as follow :

● 20°C (68°F) : 2,32–2,59 kΩ
● 80°C (176°F): 0,31–0,33 kΩ
● 110°C (230°F): 0,14–0,15 kΩ
 
I guess to reduce production costs Ms Yamaha put the same temperature sensor for the air intake & the coolant, then did a little change inside the ECU code. The problem is that the guy who write the WM is not aware of the mod.
 
Other WM (FJR1300 & XTZ1200) are sometime a bit funny : the IAT standard resistance is given at 80°C !  :blink:
 

 

It may be that the resistance doesn't matter:

- A TPS is basically a potentiometer, and if you apply a voltage of, say, 10V across it, the voltage between one endpoint and the slider will be 0-10V as you turn the potentiometer.

 

The only way the total resistance will come into play, is that load you attach to the "output"; A 1kohm load will actually make the voltage unlinear relative to the rotation, but still give 0-10V.

An incompatible TPS could at worst give unlinear input, the consequences I wouldn't know.

 

Chances are good 2.42, 4, 6 or even 1 kohms won't matter.

 

Agree, the ECU have high-impedance analog inputs so the linear output of the potentiometer is not affected.


Edited by JBX, 24 June 2016 - 10:42 pm.

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#255 frits44

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 06:14 am

JBX good morning,

 

Maybe yamaha makes a little mistake here but it still works great.

It is strange when you read this different number or values.

Maybe it has to do with mass production. sensors with wide range used on many other motorcycles.

 

I also think that the IAT sensor and the coolant sensor are the same.

 

 

Many thanks for the info.

 

Greetings, Frits from holland



#256 frits44

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 06:35 am

About the IAT sensor in the air box, in slow traffic it becomes 55 degrees celsius also because of the heat from the engine.

When driving the IAT sensor measures 40 to 46 degrees celsius.

With these given values the signal to the ECU is very lean and therefor very lean on the fuel.

That is why I relocated my IAT sensor out of the airbox to the front of the bike.

Now my IAT sensor measures lower temperatures and sends a higher signal to the ECU

to get a little bit more fuel. Easy and it costs nothing.

This is also for my one of the mods I did to solve the jerkiness from the TDM 900

 

Greetings, Frits from Holland



#257 muddy

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 10:23 am

Put a new air filter in during the week and now have a much more responsive bike. Didn't bother trying without the airbox top on, but if it's this much better I'm starting to wonder...
Have to admit I neglected to change it at the recommended mileage though.

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#258 fixitsan

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 11:23 am

About the IAT sensor in the air box, in slow traffic it becomes 55 degrees celsius also because of the heat from the engine.

When driving the IAT sensor measures 40 to 46 degrees celsius.

With these given values the signal to the ECU is very lean and therefor very lean on the fuel.

That is why I relocated my IAT sensor out of the airbox to the front of the bike.

Now my IAT sensor measures lower temperatures and sends a higher signal to the ECU

to get a little bit more fuel. Easy and it costs nothing.

This is also for my one of the mods I did to solve the jerkiness from the TDM 900

 

Greetings, Frits from Holland

 

 

Frits, there is also a temperature sonde/sensor in the rear wheel arch. Doesn't that also measure air temperature ?


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#259 JBX

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 01:02 pm

This is the atmospheric pressure sensor.

 

There are only two temperature sensors on the 9er :

● intake air temperature sensor - inside the airbox.

● coolant temperature sensor - on the thermostat housing.


Edited by JBX, 25 June 2016 - 01:05 pm.

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#260 fixitsan

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Posted 25 June 2016 - 03:13 pm

This is the atmospheric pressure sensor.

 

There are only two temperature sensors on the 9er :

● intake air temperature sensor - inside the airbox.

● coolant temperature sensor - on the thermostat housing.

 

 

Thanks for clarifying it. I only looked at it with my fingers, not my eyes :)


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