36 replies to this topic

[fixitsan]

Lubrication is not about wasting time and money on "ultimate performance" oil, it's about avoiding spending more time and more money on low performance / cheap / crap oil (also known as mineral oil, mixed or not) because of the consequences it may have on your engine.

 

 

I don't think that anyone can dispute the logic there. It makes perfect sense for sure

 

The question has to be asked "When all the mineral oil has been superceded by 'superior' oils, will oil development therefore end ?

 

It is well known that mineral oil allows a little bit more wear to occur (useful as a running in oil)......but I've just gone to google to find images of 'increased engine wear due to wrong oil' .....and perhaps unsurprisingly there are very few.....there are plenty of  colourful graphics from oil companies showing cartoon like situations however.

 

 

The 850 *should* use 10W30 or 10W40 oil....but it seems to be generally accepted that 10W40 is   'always fine'  

 

BUT 10W40 has greater viscosity, and in our UK climate that's a bad thing when the weather cools down. Using the wrong oil causes allsorts of things, not least of which the oil pressure bypass valve relieves pressure for a greater mass of oil which should otherwise be performing cooling and lubrication duties. .....and yet more people want to  push 'Use the latest and greatest oil' angle, than 'use the correct viscosity'

 

As I've just witnessed on my mk2 with cold oil and an output shaft seal which has been installed but the seal retaining plate was not yet fitted, the oil pressure behind that seal is huge, enough to blow the seal out. Lower viscosity or warmer oil would not press quite as much.

 

Which leads me to think about what I've read on TRX forums. Some people report less oil loss when using mineral oil. Mineral  oil can thin out and the oil pressure relief valve isn't going to be relieving as much oil back to the sump but instead lets it circulate to provide a higher flow of the essential cooling and lubricating fluid. Critically the pressure behind the output shaft seal will be lowered

 

The oil seal i removed from the 850 looked in good condition, and this high oil loss has only happened recently while the temperature is below 5 celsius.

EDIT - I don't think there is much oil loss when the oil is cold though, having thought about that some more !

 

I'm seriously thinking that what i ought to do now when I fit the new seal is, knowing that the temperature is set to drop a lot, switch to 5W30 oil, and therefore keep the pressure behind the output shaft seal a lot lower than now, possibly reducing any oil loss from there.

Edited by fixitsan, 27 November 2016 - 08:34 pm.

[fixitsan]

So what are people's thoughts on this ?

 

http://www.ebay.co.u...kwAAOSwPgxVQz5Z

 

Castrol 10W30 motorcycle oil for racing bikes. Any good for a TDM850 ?

 

At first glance it's a very advanced well researched product.....however , according to the TDM850 user manual, it is unsuitable because it has an API rating of 'SL', and Yamaha recommends a rating of no higher than 'SH'......

 

I'm actually struggling to find a modern mineral oil with a rating below 'SL'.........EDIT - I just found a mineral oil with as low a rating as 'SJ'...but that's still 'too high', it's above 'SH'

[Apache]

Mineral oil works for me the past 43 years. Change it and the filter every 4k. Never lost or worn out an engine. Neglecting oil change frequency and oil starvation from not checking levels are the enemy.

[fixitsan]

Mineral oil works for me the past 43 years. Change it and the filter every 4k. Never lost or worn out an engine. Neglecting oil change frequency and oil starvation from not checking levels are the enemy.

 

 

+1

[cortez]

Ah oils!  Nothing on a motorcycle site is guaranteed to stir up a hornets nest more than a discussion on oils.

 

For what it's worth, my Niner has done 115,000ks.  The dealer told me to use mineral oil for the first 10,000ks then switch to semi synth, and this is what I did.  That makes 105,000ks that my bike has now existed on a diet of Silkolene semi synth 10w40.  Oil and filter is changed every 6,000ks, and my bike has never used a drop of oil between changes, there's been zero mechanical issues too.

 

I should add where I live in South Eastern Australia every winter we have overnight temperatures below zero celcius on occasion, and in summer temperatures will exceed 40c at least a few times.  It's 3.30 pm and 27c at the moment .

[dicky1]

My previous bike was a tdm 850 which used oil like an alcoholic, especially in hot weather at speed Someone on Carpe suggested using Duckham's 20-50 grade oil, which did help somewhat
Still went around with a 2 litre can of oil in the topbox when doing trips and checked the oil level each evening

[mh1848]

So what are people's thoughts on this ?

 

http://www.ebay.co.u...kwAAOSwPgxVQz5Z

 

Castrol 10W30 motorcycle oil for racing bikes. Any good for a TDM850 ?

 

At first glance it's a very advanced well researched product.....however , according to the TDM850 user manual, it is unsuitable because it has an API rating of 'SL', and Yamaha recommends a rating of no higher than 'SH'......

 

I'm actually struggling to find a modern mineral oil with a rating below 'SL'.........EDIT - I just found a mineral oil with as low a rating as 'SJ'...but that's still 'too high', it's above 'SH'

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-841-silkolene-classic-silkolube-20w-50-mineral-engine-oil-for-cars-and-motorbikes.aspx - only SF though! but some other options on this site and i think you get 10% discount from Opie Oils as Carpe member

[fixitsan]

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-841-silkolene-classic-silkolube-20w-50-mineral-engine-oil-for-cars-and-motorbikes.aspx - only SF though! but some other options on this site and i think you get 10% discount from Opie Oils as Carpe member

 

 

Good find.

 

It seems the manual I took the initial info from was very early and later manuals don't specify an upper API rating any more.

 

The early 850 manual also specified 10W40 or 10W30.   10W30 for colder climates

 

I've just refilled with 5W30, based on the assumption that higher viscosity means lower flow, and more oil being dumped back in the sump from the pressure relief valve. (all just assumption now though) - and also because a thinner oil puts less pressure behind the output shaft oil seal adn may reduce any leakage...... I'm still testing that idea out but I read some TRX owners swear that their oil consumption reduces when the change to mineral oil (viscosity thins with age sometimes)

[muddy]

For a change it's nice to see the opinion of someone who has real world experience and hands on testing, rather than some oik who says he's "had sunflower oil in his bike for the past five years without any problems and he's done nearly 1000 miles".
Opinions from people such as yourself are always worth considering.

Minus the sunflower oil, Apache was just such an oink once upon a time was he not?

[Apache]

Minus the sunflower oil, Apache was just such an oink once upon a time was he not?

Oh, you bitch !

[muddy]

Oh, you bitch !

You're alright mate, it's those of us who haven't racked up a gazillion miles on the bog standard stuff who get the snark.

[Retro]

Just bought a tanker load of this stuff. Seems to be high spec but at that price I can aford to change it every 1000 miles

[Apache]

Good find retro. Never heard of them.

Just bought a tanker load of this stuff. Seems to be high spec but at that price I can aford to change it every 1000 miles

Change it at normal intervals. I wouldn't be surprised to find its also sold in Halford containers.

[geoffdl99bt]

Guys

I don't want to inflame passions on the subject of oil  but after 40 plus years of riding and 30 of driving a variety of cars and bikes

mostly on mineral oils I've never had an engine let go, seize or throw a wobbly or even start burning loads of oil until over the last 2 years when i changed the mK2  850 onto semi synthetic

since then I use about a litre every thousand miles, had the bike from new in 1999 and change the filter and oil every 2000 miles

probably coincidence!

[fixitsan]

Guys

I don't want to inflame passions on the subject of oil  but after 40 plus years of riding and 30 of driving a variety of cars and bikes

mostly on mineral oils I've never had an engine let go, seize or throw a wobbly or even start burning loads of oil until over the last 2 years when i changed the mK2  850 onto semi synthetic

since then I use about a litre every thousand miles, had the bike from new in 1999 and change the filter and oil every 2000 miles

probably coincidence!

 

Several TRX riders claim a drop in oil consumption by changing to mineral oil.

 

Im in favour of thinner oil on the grounds that oil flow is higher, therefore more surface cooling can occur.  I also find it difficult to find examples (via google) of engine failure due to using the 'wrong' oil.....although its easy to find examples of failures caused by a lack of oil.

[dapleb]

 
The 850 *should* use 10W30 or 10W40 oil....but it seems to be generally accepted that 10W40 is   'always fine'  

Haynes says either of those weights. Having done many many oil changes I couldn't remember what weight i normally use. This time the Yamaha Service manuel (for mk1) was easier to access than the Haynes and that says...


Temps minus to 15degC:

Yamalube 4 (10W30) or SAE 10W30 type SE motor oil.


Temps 5 to above 15 degC:

Yamalube 4 (20W40) or SAE 20W40 type SE motor oil.

Don't think I ever knew that...or forgot.

[leehenty]

Myself I have always used Motul 7100 full synthetic which is overkill for a TDM engine design.
I popped cams out at 50,000 miles for shims and they were perfect, no signs of wear or any marks at all. So they must be well made and hardened properly ( Looking at you KTM)

Where motorcycle oils work hard is in the high shear areas in the gearbox, in between the gear teeth. All oils get sheared where the molecules break down and the oil loses viscosity. Regular changes are good.