By the way, as with anything, not all advanced riders will be the same.
My instructor told me of one of his students who hated overtaking, and told the examiner at the start of the test that he would not be doing any.
He passed (despite missing some perfectly good opportunities).
After the test my instructor asked the examiner why he passed him. He explained he rode so well the rest of the time that he couldn't fail him.
When I took my training and test I was told that if an overtake presented itself and I didn't take it I would be failed
I get the logic of crossing the centre line for visibility. I use my whole lane when riding and occasionally will hit or just cross the centre line to see my way through a corner. My biggest beef with advocating using the whole road in training is the risk of creating a habit in riders. Most accidents occur on familiar roads when the rider/driver is concentrating less and habitually crossing the centre line strikes me as being very dodgy unless your 100% on your game 100% of the time.
I've been involved in training with other riders for awhile and had my eyes opened to how fallible we are and how differently we perceive things. After being taught the correct road position to enter a left hand bend one rider quickly developed the habit of staying to the right of there lane and totally missing the apex, leaving them in the face of oncoming traffic which would often be apexing early and cutting the corner. They were oblivious to this and it took awhile to break the habit. If they are tired or not concentrating they start to get lazy again.
We can all develop habits like this which is why I'm not a fan. It's handy to have the confidence to use the whole road should it be necessary but I don't think it has a place in day to day riding.
Oh, did you see the Fed shaking his fist at the truck inches from his bike in the SEG vid? Mint, get the Glock out!
TDM 850 Loud and unusual. CRM 250r Woo hoo! DT 230 Lanza Fiddled with.... Bloody hell, is that legal? GG Randonee AKA "I didn't think that was possible".
When I took my training and test I was told that if an overtake presented itself and I didn't take it I would be failed
There are so many tick boxes on the sheet (certainly more than 20; is it as many as 30?), I suppose if one is perfect with all the others...? Or maybe it's another one of these area variants: An automatic fail in one but just frowned upon in another.
Personally I love overtaking (my failing on my test was being a bit too quick, 'pushing the limit in some places', the examiner said. Though I also ballsed up the one overtake on my test as was so worried about speeding, and of the solid whites that are all over the place down here... I didn't stay out to keep the view like I should have done; instead rushing to get back in, 'diving like a submarine'. Pissed me off a bit as I did it, as I love overtaking and staying out. But I'd got myself in a bit of a state re the overtaking dilemma.)
After my test I felt I could have done it again straight away and would have done even better; now I knew exactly what the examiner was looking for. So be it.
Edited by NickIAM, 08 January 2016 - 10:10 pm.
Yeah, I've done the IAM. And yeah, I recommend it (any so-called 'advanced training' come to that; not just IAM): A low cost training course based on the system used by the police, which is largely common sense once pointed out, making one smoother, quicker and safer. What's not to like? And why would one not want to tell others?
Location:Usually in a Hospital somewhere in the Birmingham area
TDM model: 1993
Posted 09 January 2016 - 09:27 am
When I took my advanced test in the 80's I took an overtake not long after the start and caught my examiner on the hop and he was stuck for over 3 miles before he could pass the line of traffic, I was in the lay-by waiting for him nothing was said until the debriefing at the end. God it felt good.
I've been involved in training with other riders for awhile and had my eyes opened to how fallible we are and how differently we perceive things. After being taught the correct road position to enter a left hand bend one rider quickly developed the habit of staying to the right of there lane and totally missing the apex, leaving them in the face of oncoming traffic which would often be apexing early and cutting the corner.
Oh, did you see the Fed shaking his fist at the truck inches from his bike in the SEG vid? Mint, get the Glock out!
So I am left wondering now - what do you perceive to be the 'correct way' to take a corner ?
You advocate hitting the apex, which to me is the equivalent of saying 'the racing line'
The IAM take a different view (remember , international readers we drive on the left in the UK, so the reverse applies to you if you ride/drive on the right)
If it’s clear, position your machine correctly – move to the left-hand side of your carriageway for right-hand bends, or out towards the centre on left-handers (but don’t cross the broken white line unless it is completely safe). This repositioning increases your view through the bend and allows smoother steering and progress. Never position your machine so far over that it could unnerve another road user or put you in danger.
Taking the apex on a right hander in the UK, or the opposite side abroad in right hand side driving countries, positions you in the middle of the road, possibly leaning over the centre marking and bringing you face to face with oncoming traffic......if they're having to avoid potholes on their nearside you would be in a very dangerous position
I agree that taking the apex is the line of least resistance, and if you're driving a car you find that when you apex a left hander your head position is still a long way from the apex when your left wheels are on the apex, due to the position of the driver's seat in the car and that still gives you a reasonable view. But on a bike if you are taking the apex your head position is probably another 6 feet over to the left, it seems to me that it limits your view around the corner when you hug the apex.
I didn't see the part of the film you're talking about but I'll have another look
Here's an accident which might have been avoided if the rider had used the whole road on the entry to the corner. Staying out left for as long as he can see around the corner would have forewarned him of the presence of the vehicle he crashed with.
Thankfully they were first aiders
Edited by fixitsan, 09 January 2016 - 10:59 am.
Ohlins, PC3, fuel cut defeat, +4deg timing, 17" front wheel.
OMG... And I clicked on the link twice more and got two DIFFERENT series of motorcycle crashes. If anyone wanted proof of the crap-saying 'motorcycling is dangerous', they would do the trick.
But yes, also all of them (maybe without exception) could/would have been avoided/avoidable using the advanced riding techniques. If only the mindset to expect/allow for people not to have seen you, ride to what you can see, and stay out of trouble.
Yeah, I've done the IAM. And yeah, I recommend it (any so-called 'advanced training' come to that; not just IAM): A low cost training course based on the system used by the police, which is largely common sense once pointed out, making one smoother, quicker and safer. What's not to like? And why would one not want to tell others?
Yeah you need to hit refresh to get the player to show the original clip again.....thanks to Youtube's player.
Motorcycling wouldn't have higher accident rates if every road user were 100% attentive. I have 'Think Bike' stickers on my car, and my wife and daughter do too. Maybe they'll remind more people to Think Bike.......but if a biker comes hooning round a corner on the racing line towards another road user I don't see how thinking bike can make much of a difference unfortunately.
The worst type of accident I hear about is when 2 bikers collide head on.......that one seems always to be avoidable
Ohlins, PC3, fuel cut defeat, +4deg timing, 17" front wheel.
Re stickers: IAM and ROSPA stickers are available too, but most members won't even put little ones on their bike...
Apparently this is so people don't think they are c*cks showing off.
This is a shame. I've put a small number of well-placed little stickers on my bike, promoting the IAM, because I think it's great and I'd like others to give it a go; in the same way as I've put the carpe stickers on my bike too, for the same reason. No one (hopefully) would think 'Look at him, showing off that he visits a forum', so why people do this with IAM and ROSPA I don't know.
Yeah, I've done the IAM. And yeah, I recommend it (any so-called 'advanced training' come to that; not just IAM): A low cost training course based on the system used by the police, which is largely common sense once pointed out, making one smoother, quicker and safer. What's not to like? And why would one not want to tell others?
So I am left wondering now - what do you perceive to be the 'correct way' to take a corner ?
You advocate hitting the apex, which to me is the equivalent of saying 'the racing line'
The IAM take a different view (remember , international readers we drive on the left in the UK, so the reverse applies to you if you ride/drive on the right)
Yep, I ride as advocated by IAM, ROSPA etc maximising my visibilty until I can see my way out of a corner, watching the vanishing point etc. Well, do my best anyhoo. Just not a fan of taking that philosophy into the oncoming lane. Some organisations call it late apexing. I will be doing an assessment in April with our regions Chief Traffic officer just to avoid unnoticed bad habits creeping in. We ride on the left, too, in NZ.
Interestingly, the racing line and "safe" line on a track are very similar according to a test in a UK magazine a few years ago. The racing line only differed in constant radius corners IIRC.
Speaking of overtaking, losing instructors. A training day a couple of years ago was held on a gorgeous, twisty, coastal road. Our instructor was on a huge Triumph cruiser thing, not the best bike for the route, and had a horrendous time trying to keep up. We had to stop every few K's for him to catch up, much to his embarrassment. He has bought a Triumph adventure bike now.. Still waiting for some gravel training courses to happen.
We are on the same page apart from crossing the centre line but I have never had instructors who advocate it. On our last training ride with the Traffic officer, one of our group came very close to getting ticketed for doing exactly that. He got away with an almighty bollocking.
Horses for courses I guess and getting home safe is what counts.
TDM 850 Loud and unusual. CRM 250r Woo hoo! DT 230 Lanza Fiddled with.... Bloody hell, is that legal? GG Randonee AKA "I didn't think that was possible".
It's just a tough call when there's no painted centreline,like in the last video
Regarding safe line and fastest line on a track....that only applies to a track - where there are never any oncoming vehicles - or pray to god there's no oncoming vehicles !
We are on the same page apart from crossing the centre line but I have never had instructors who advocate it. On our last training ride with the Traffic officer, one of our group came very close to getting ticketed for doing exactly that
You have to cross it to overtake anyway (unless the line is of a type which forbids overtaking/crossing the line).... I don't see the difficulty in crossing it, i guess that I just imagine I'm overtaking somebody and enjoying a better view
Ohlins, PC3, fuel cut defeat, +4deg timing, 17" front wheel.
In my IAM training it was an expected part of the ride, and evidence of my staying alert, paying attention, and riding to the road conditions and environment.
Yeah, I've done the IAM. And yeah, I recommend it (any so-called 'advanced training' come to that; not just IAM): A low cost training course based on the system used by the police, which is largely common sense once pointed out, making one smoother, quicker and safer. What's not to like? And why would one not want to tell others?
It only usually takes 6 to 8 observed rides, then one with a senior observer, then the test.
I'd do the test rides all day. It's the highway code etc that I struggle with. But with a bit of hard work I did fine.
It's all common sense, once pointed out, and obvious really once seen. So then it's just doing it.
Edited by NickIAM, 09 January 2016 - 10:38 pm.
Yeah, I've done the IAM. And yeah, I recommend it (any so-called 'advanced training' come to that; not just IAM): A low cost training course based on the system used by the police, which is largely common sense once pointed out, making one smoother, quicker and safer. What's not to like? And why would one not want to tell others?
Seeing people queuing both sides of a set of double doors when only one half is open is bemusing. (It's rare for anyone to push open the other door.)
Common sense is not always so common, as you say.
Yeah, I've done the IAM. And yeah, I recommend it (any so-called 'advanced training' come to that; not just IAM): A low cost training course based on the system used by the police, which is largely common sense once pointed out, making one smoother, quicker and safer. What's not to like? And why would one not want to tell others?
It's just a tough call when there's no painted centreline,like in the last video
Regarding safe line and fastest line on a track....that only applies to a track - where there are never any oncoming vehicles - or pray to god there's no oncoming vehicles !
You have to cross it to overtake anyway (unless the line is of a type which forbids overtaking/crossing the line).... I don't see the difficulty in crossing it, i guess that I just imagine I'm overtaking somebody and enjoying a better view
In all fairness a lot of accidents down here are caused by people crossing the centre line. We have a lot of tourists who are poor drivers and Kiwis aren't the flashest anyway. Coupled with our twisty, relatively empty roads and slow drivers causing road rage leading to rash decisions, head on's are frighteningly common.
TDM 850 Loud and unusual. CRM 250r Woo hoo! DT 230 Lanza Fiddled with.... Bloody hell, is that legal? GG Randonee AKA "I didn't think that was possible".
