135 replies to this topic

[fixitsan]

In all fairness a lot of accidents down here are caused by people crossing the centre line. We have a lot of tourists who are poor drivers and Kiwis aren't the flashest anyway. Coupled with our twisty, relatively empty roads and slow drivers causing road rage leading to rash decisions, head on's are frighteningly common. 

 

My nephew has taken up residency there and seems pretty settled, I have some Kiwi friends from the south island (real New Zealand as they call it )

 

Your accident statistics are similar to the rest of the world....with only a couple of exceptions regarding motorcycles. (most of the following are excerpts from national figures, and some are my own interpretation)

 

Between 1980 and 2004 there was a large drop in m/cycle deaths. This is attributed to younger riders getting better (supported by the data). 

Like a lot of other places in the world, in recent years the rising death toll has been among older  45+ years  riders. perhaps the returning biker/fast bike phenomenon is to blame.

 

You do have an exceptionally high cause of motorcycle accidents (when rider is at fault) relating to the consumption of drink and drugs.

Quote -Of motorcyclists involved in fatal crashes, 29 percent are affected by alcohol/drugs; 34 percent are travelling too fast for the conditions; and 47 percent are travelling too fast for the conditions and/or are affected by alcohol/drugs.

 

Tourist accidents are only about 3%, typical for your sort of geography  (low population, lots of tourists)....similar to Scotland.

 

Of the head on crashes, 70% are the motorcyclists fault.  but like most places the largest killer of motorcyclists is the motorcycle leaving the road, usually when no other vehicle is involved

 

in 66% of crashes involving another vehicle, the other vehicle is to blame..

 

SOURCE - http://www.transport...orcycles-15.pdf

 

 

 

Putting this into perspective regarding crossing the centreline....the key point which i believe has been stressed is that you don't usually do it when other vehicles are around.  So if an accident occurs then you are in the statistical group of when a motorcyclist has an accident when there are no other road users present.

 

World motorcycling statistics show that..... "               "In the single vehicle accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the accident precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases, with the typical error being a slide-out and fall due to overbraking or running wide on a curve due to excess speed or under-cornering.""

 

 

This seems to suggest a variety of factors - excess speed, poor visibility and no warning of what is around the bend when the initial position for taking the corner is chosen.

 

 

 

 

Anyhow, this was a good series....unbelievably a world motorcycle racing title holder who had never passed his road test.....

[harvey krumpet]

This has turned into an excellent thread. Cheers all for thoughts, vids and input.

 

I shall stick to my guns, though, and stay on my side of the road, tempering my speed as appropriate. 

 

Interesting comment in the above vid about body position through a corner. This came up in a training course a couple of years ago, described as "kiss the mirror". Shoulder and elbow down, bodyweight inside the bike, weight and head forward into the turn to reduce the bikes lean and increase grip on sub par road surfaces. Absolutely tied me in knots, my riding deteriorated immensely trying to do it. A year later on another course I mentioned my difficulties. I was told that you pivot around the tank rather than move across the seat... Well, blow me down, what a revelation. The subtle change of body position, none of this knee down, look at me, nonsense, has a noticeable effect on how the bike responds to control. Changing line, a touch of brake, keeping the throttle on etc It feels precise and controlled.

Bear in mind all the roads round here are like the Borders or West coast of Scotland so the riding is pretty dynamic. If you can break the speed limit for more than 30 seconds your a chancer.

[fixitsan]

I guess we can all agree with this advice anyway

 

 

No need to hang off the bike at all    There is no extra lateral grip from a tyre when it is upright than when it's leaned over (hence the curved cross sectional profile)... I think it's mostly a myth that you get a larger contact patch when vertical. All the research I've seen says the manufacturers go out of their way to develop tyres which don't have such characteristics

 

The image below (from a popular sport bike magazine), is aimed to give road riders a bit more knowledge and show that their tyre is already optimised for an upright riding style. You should check with your particular tyre manufacturer, but manufacturers now make this sort of tyre more and more frequently

 

 

[attachment=7295:contact patch.jpg]

 

 

in fact many tyre manufacturers are using slightly stickier compounds up the edges and harder low wear rate compounds down the middle of a carcass. My bike came with Dunlop Roadsmart 2 tyres, which have this characteristic.....why would I want to lean off to get the bike more vertical and make it run on it's harder compound - in the middle of the corner I want to be making use of the softer edge compound and largest contact patch

 

Track tyres are different, but tyre manufacturers make these great road tyres so we don't have to play with myths that we get a bigger contact patch when the bike is vertical

 

[attachment=7294:ROADSMART-II_Illo_B_lr.jpg]

 

 

 

 

 

Again. track tyres are different, so track riding styles aren't all that relevant on road tyres, but even then, road tyres don't suffer from having smaller contact patches as you roll up the edge of the sidewall, and as soon as you lean off the bike and lower your head position, generally speaking you limit how far ahead you can see too

Edited by fixitsan, 11 January 2016 - 08:59 am.

[NickIAM]

Interesting comment in the above vid about body position through a corner. This came up in a training course a couple of years ago, described as "kiss the mirror". Shoulder and elbow down, bodyweight inside the bike, weight and head forward into the turn to reduce the bikes lean and increase grip on sub par road surfaces. Absolutely tied me in knots, my riding deteriorated immensely trying to do it. A year later on another course I mentioned my difficulties. I was told that you pivot around the tank rather than move across the seat... Well, blow me down, what a revelation. The subtle change of body position, none of this knee down, look at me, nonsense, has a noticeable effect on how the bike responds to control. Changing line, a touch of brake, keeping the throttle on etc It feels precise and controlled.

 

 

Aha, that sounds familiar.

 

I did my second IAM's Skills Day at Thruxton at the end of last year, and on the first time out, on a tight (and relatively slow) left hander I scraped the peg, and scared myself a bit. The instructor pointed out that I was leaning the bike in but leaning my body out ('supermoto style'), hence increasing the lean of the bike. He told me to lean in to the bend, to keep the bike upright...

 

So I did..

 

I worked like hell that day to lean my body in, to keep the bike upright; and it was soooo weird. And impossible - I was honestly trying the rest of the day to go round the bends at 80+ mph while keeping the bike upright. Got myself into quite a muddle.

 

On the way home that day (along the A272; lovely winding road, with some great straights) I continued to try it; and got myself into even more of a muddle, as I found, when I lean my body into the bend, I lose some of my visibility that I would usually have from leaning my body out. It messed with my head a bit.

 

And to be honest, I am still not quite over it.

 

If I lean my body in, I lose the view (and must go slower as a result). If I lean my body out (and lean the bike in more), I get the best view. The latter, with the better view, means I am safer (and quicker), BUT the bike is leaning more so there is an increased chance of losing it, as it puts more requirement on traction (doesn't it?). (Though, this may only be a real issue if I pushed it to more of an extent than I do; and as I make sure I get the view, of the road surface as well, if the surface was dodgy I would slow down before I got to it.)

 

The answer is probably some middle ground; but getting (and keeping) the best possible view has become so ingrained in me that giving any of it up is really tough.

 

  

[fixitsan]

As far as I'm aware the required traction, or the friction to withstand sideways slip, is identical regardless of lean angle, for identical bikes on identical radius curves.

You can only increase grip by increasing the size of the contact patch or the rubber formula. Having said that, as the size of the contact patch increases the pressure applied to the road surface decreases, in wet weather that can sometimes be a problem.

[NickIAM]

So I don't need to sacrifice my view than? That suits me. (Though maybe a lesser lean will just offer a greater chance of saving any slide?)

[hvass]

During my driving instructor training I also learnt that you can cross any broken line on the road for whatever reason, as long as it is safe to do so.

 

You can also cross any solid line, but only if it is needed to and if it is safe to.

 

Lorries have to cross both all the time merely to turn in and out of roads.

 

I say this because everyone I've spoken to about this rule think you can't cross a solid line for any reason!

 

 

Great thread .. just catching up with it 

 

BUT sorry have to correct your assertion:

 

<<You can also cross any solid line, but only if it is needed to and if it is safe to.

 

Is a bit of a simplification isnt it?

I concede highway code can sometimes be written badly in its attempt to dumb things down ... example being rule 129 which I agree can be read in different ways depending on the interpretation of commas

 

Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 26

 

So worth knowing what the RTA 1988 act actually says ... The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 No. 3113 PART I SECTION 4 Regulation 26

 

(6) Nothing in paragraph (2)(b) shall be taken to prohibit a vehicle from being driven across, or so as to straddle, the continuous line referred to in that paragraph, if it is safe to do so and if necessary to do so—

(a)to enable the vehicle to enter, from the side of the road on which it is proceeding, land or premises adjacent to the length of road on which the line is placed, or another road joining that road;

(b)in order to pass a stationary vehicle;

©owing to circumstances outside the control of the driver;

(d)in order to avoid an accident;

(e)in order to pass a road maintenance vehicle which is in use, is moving at a speed not exceeding 10 mph, and is displaying to the rear the sign shown in diagram 610 or 7403;

(f)in order to pass a pedal cycle moving at a speed not exceeding 10 mph;

(g)in order to pass a horse that is being ridden or led at a speed not exceeding 10 mph; or

(h)for the purposes of complying with any direction of a constable in uniform or a traffic warden.

[RolfieB]

During my driving instructor training I also learnt that you can cross any broken line on the road for whatever reason, as long as it is safe to do so.

 

You can also cross any solid line, but only if it is needed to and if it is safe to.

 

Lorries have to cross both all the time merely to turn in and out of roads.

 

I say this because everyone I've spoken to about this rule think you can't cross a solid line for any reason!

Not strictly true. You may cross a solid line if the road ahead is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, cyclists, horses or highway maintenance vehicles if travelling at 10 mph or less.

This was one question I was asked when I did my test.

 

Bugger you beat me to it.

Edited by RolfieB, 11 January 2016 - 05:57 pm.

[RolfieB]

Hmm! a lot of posts ref using the whole of the road.

When having one of our coffee breaks my tutor mentioned another pupil that he took for his test. He was failed due to twice crossing the centre line.

Frowned upon & was something that was never mentioned on any of my sessions. Whilst I realise you can use the whole of the road if safe to do so.

It is something I do not feel the need to do, by matching speed to the limit point & being in the correct gear I can safely navigate left handers or right handers without the need to cross the centre line.

You never sacrifice safety for position. You should also always be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear on your side of the road.

Something obviously sunk in  .

[ProudViking]

 

 

Great thread .. just catching up with it 

 

BUT sorry have to correct your assertion:

 

<<You can also cross any solid line, but only if it is needed to and if it is safe to.

 

Is a bit of a simplification isnt it?

I concede highway code can sometimes be written badly in its attempt to dumb things down ... example being rule 129 which I agree can be read in different ways depending on the interpretation of commas

 

Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 26

 

So worth knowing what the RTA 1988 act actually says ... The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 No. 3113 PART I SECTION 4 Regulation 26

 

(6) Nothing in paragraph (2)(b) shall be taken to prohibit a vehicle from being driven across, or so as to straddle, the continuous line referred to in that paragraph, if it is safe to do so and if necessary to do so—

(a)to enable the vehicle to enter, from the side of the road on which it is proceeding, land or premises adjacent to the length of road on which the line is placed, or another road joining that road;

(b)in order to pass a stationary vehicle;

©owing to circumstances outside the control of the driver;

(d)in order to avoid an accident;

(e)in order to pass a road maintenance vehicle which is in use, is moving at a speed not exceeding 10 mph, and is displaying to the rear the sign shown in diagram 610 or 7403;

(f)in order to pass a pedal cycle moving at a speed not exceeding 10 mph;

(g)in order to pass a horse that is being ridden or led at a speed not exceeding 10 mph; or

 

(h)for the purposes of complying with any direction of a constable in uniform or a traffic warden.

I think that matches what I said. i.e When you need to and it is safe.

[hvass]

My other 2cents worth..

 

Having lived in NZ briefly in 2007 I can attest to the endemic problem with (lazy?) drivers crossing the white line...

We seem to have caught it here in the UK...

 

When cornering and considering road position I now have to consider:

 - In addition to the standard SSV (Safety, Stability, View) so never sacrifice safety and stability for view

 - Any lazy driver who sees it is only a Bike (rather than an arctic) so after doing the twitch just does not bother to return to their side of the road causing the biker to turn in before they plan compromising their road position

 

So I always retain a little bit of lean angle and technique for these circumstances:

Last minute counter steer ... super moto style when have to tighten up the corner

Hanging off (more a last minute head butting the mirror)... when I find I have gone it too hot and/or if the road surface turns out to be bad

 

It is worth noting that with more lean angle the argument is not really about the size of the tyre contact patch but with how effective your suspension is vertical vs leaned over ... with larger lean angles unless you have very good suspension you are sacrificing grip..

 

On the other hand you dont want to go too slow into corners either  you need the speed when cornering otherwise you just dont get the grip from the 'set'.

[ProudViking]

Not strictly true. You may cross a solid line if the road ahead is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, cyclists, horses or highway maintenance vehicles if travelling at 10 mph or less.

This was one question I was asked when I did my test.

All of these are classed as stationary because of their speed, so I think it is looked upon that you "have" to pass/overtake them. You would not stop behind a parked vehicle on a highway just because of a solid white line and that applies to these as well.

 

But like I said in the post, You can cross a solid white when you "HAVE/NEED" to and it is safe.

[RolfieB]

All of these are classed as stationary because of their speed, so I think it is looked upon that you "have" to pass/overtake them. You would not stop behind a parked vehicle on a highway just because of a solid white line and that applies to these as well.

 

But like I said in the post, You can cross a solid white when you "HAVE/NEED" to and it is safe.

Still open to misinterpretation. If you are travelling at 30 mph & I want to maintain 40 mph so feel I need to overtake. Am I permitted to cross the solid white line. 

Being pedantic I know. But you see it happening all the time nowadays.

[ProudViking]

Still open to misinterpretation. If you are travelling at 30 mph & I want to maintain 40 mph so feel I need to overtake. Am I permitted to cross the solid white line. 

Being pedantic I know. But you see it happening all the time nowadays.

I like pedantic.

 

Well it depends on the speed limit of the road

 

But if you're driving an ambulance or fire engine responding to a call, I think you'll get away with it, even though I'm sure "technically" these must obey speed limits too.

 

All rules, when put to the test, come down to interpretation. I'm a Leicester City fan and I've been dealing with this very thing since last night...NO penalty!!!

[fixitsan]

With regards to 'crossing the white line' I wouldn't cross a solid white line ever....apart from the legal exceptions already mentioned.

 

A solid white line is a 'last resort' road marking, denoting an area of extreme danger, or a road which has seen many fatalities. Here in West Lothian we know a corner is potentially deadly because the council made sure there was a 'slow' sign prior to any corner where a fatal accident took place....then they went one further, if there was another accident there is a second 'slow ' sign !. I haven't seen three slows, I think they drew the line at 2.......if you still go too fast when there's 2 slow signs and a solid white line, perhaps some would argue that it was just natural selection waiting to happen ?

 

When i did the BikeSafe course, where we were running on the offisde carriageway sometimes, the police rider said he would haul us over immediately if we ever crossed a solid white line, so perhaps there was method in the madness too. You really shouldn't cross solid lines, they're there to prevent overtaking and often found where there are hidden side roads or blind dips....would you really want to be overtaking/on the offside when someone comes out of a hidden entrance on the offside.

 

That makes me think, are road markings in other countries as concise as the UK ? If someone comes off on a corner which is sharp and there is no warning sign the local council can be sued for liability, so we tend to have pretty well signed hazards which we can use, reasonably reliably to read the road ahead

[fixitsan]

Contact EDAM - you will get a good response. I may even see you there!

 

I'm planning to go along tomorrow night Steve, thanks for mentioning it.

 

Chris

[fixitsan]

So I don't need to sacrifice my view than? That suits me. (Though maybe a lesser lean will just offer a greater chance of saving any slide?)

 

Yes you can stay sat up. i do anyway, I've  followed people hanging off at 25mlph, while I was sat perfectly upright in relation to the bike , we both got through the corner as fast as it was possible to go except i had the best view !

 

As for less lean.....i don't know if i can answer it. If you get a larger contact patch in a lean, and if you have a mixed compound tyre with softer grippier rubber at the sides I guess it's half and half....but to be honest I've never seen any real data.

 

You lean less by going the long way around any corner, so coming back to crossing to the offside when it comes to left turns, you're not as leaned over as if you rode the inside line instead, at the same vehicle speed, because you ride a gentler curve on the outside

Edited by fixitsan, 11 January 2016 - 08:46 pm.

[harvey krumpet]

I have a lot of respect for whoever designed our road markings, no doubt a Brit, they are very similar. Paying attention to roadside signs and markers, the various white lines and speed recommendations prior to corners gives a lot of information about what lies ahead.

 

I LOL'ed NickIAM, thought I was uniquely challenged with the body weight thing. The penny dropped when I was told to slide my knee along the tank, it also made me start gripping the tank which I have never done before and be more aware of weighting the footrests. If anything my visibility is improved because I can look further through a corner without the bike changing line.

 

And yeah, I agree with the thinking that more lean can potentially give a bigger slide. The whole point is to minimise the risk on poor, wet, gravelly etc road surfaces. My T30's are very sticky on the sides but I doubt they would hang on to well on a slick, wet, off camber corner if I leaned to far. A twitch I can handle, a full on slide.... Rather avoid it I think.

[fixitsan]

It's interesting that the majority of biker deaths happen on bends, in single vehicle accidents (nobody else involved)

[steve27bha]

 

I'm planning to go along tomorrow night Steve, thanks for mentioning it.

 

Chris

 

Good. I'll see you there.