135 replies to this topic

[harvey krumpet]

It's interesting that the majority of biker deaths happen on bends, in single vehicle accidents (nobody else involved)

It's disturbing. A common topic of conversation that pops up on training courses is that the riders who need training the most are least likely to get trained, instructors feel they are preaching to the converted.

A lot of bikers suffer from "I've been riding for 40 years and never had an accident...", too.

 

I shudder at the number of riders I see sticking their upper bodies over the white line, braking unnecessarily mid corner, out riding themselves in groups, hiding up the arse of a van etc, generally not being aware that they can be better riders if they put the effort in. I have friends that I now refuse to ride with because they have a "moment" just about every ride. Never their fault, though. And I won't mention "Lifestyle Cruiser" riders. Oh, oops.

 

Summit else I really like about the training. It's huge fun, always an eye opening pleasure to spend a day in the twisties with a pro.

Edited by harvey krumpet, 11 January 2016 - 09:33 pm.

[fixitsan]

 

Good. I'll see you there.

 I'll let you know what colour rose I'm wearing

 

i think my daughter might come along, she wants to do her CBT soon but I keep putting her off, but I think some exposure to a very sensible approach might be a better starting point

[steve27bha]

It's interesting that the majority of biker deaths happen on bends, in single vehicle accidents (nobody else involved)

 

I'd be interested to know where this statistic came from.

 

The latest government statistics (for the year 2014) here (https://www.gov.uk/g.../rrcgb-2014.pdf) on p 265 show 1328 m/cyclist killed and seriously injured (KSI) in single vehicle accidents with no pedestrians ("solo"), out of a total of 5567 KSI for all accidents. Data for death is not separated from KSI in the report as far as I can see. That's 24% so not "the majority". The number of motorcyclist KSI on a bend and solo is part of the 1328 and thus less than that.

 

I can't find any data on bend accidents in the report.

 

Maybe the largest number of biker deaths are from accidents on bends (as opposed to locations not on bends), and the majority of those bend deaths are in single vehicle accidents, but that is not what is stated above.

[steve27bha]

 

i think my daughter might come along, she wants to do her CBT soon but I keep putting her off, but I think some exposure to a very sensible approach might be a better starting point

I respectfully suggest you do not bring her. Remember this is a meeting for IAM members and will involve discussion of matters that she will not have any experience of and could confuse her against what a CBT and learner trainer would do. As a prospective member yourself with a full licence you will be welcome. Consider yourself my guest.

[fixitsan]

I'd be interested to know where this statistic came from.
 
The latest government statistics (for the year 2014) here (https://www.gov.uk/g.../rrcgb-2014.pdf) on p 265 show 1328 m/cyclist killed and seriously injured (KSI) in single vehicle accidents with no pedestrians ("solo"), out of a total of 5567 KSI for all accidents. Data for death is not separated from KSI in the report as far as I can see. That's 24% so not "the majority". The number of motorcyclist KSI on a bend and solo is part of the 1328 and thus less than that.
 
I can't find any data on bend accidents in the report.
 
Maybe the largest number of biker deaths are from accidents on bends (as opposed to locations not on bends), and the majority of those bend deaths are in single vehicle accidents, but that is not what is stated above.

Thats correct Steve.
24% is the largest 'group' among all causes of deaths. All other causes form smaller percentiles respectively.....eg - turning across oncoming traffic is about 7% (world accident stats)

Perhaps worded another way it makes more sense - of all biker deaths which dont involve another vehicle, the most frequent cause was the rider losing control on a bend.

Hmmmmm yeah its not the majority in mathematical terms involving two sets, but when they die 'solo' bikers are most likely to have lost control on a corner, statistically speaking.

But then thats not a huge surprise i guess, killing yourself on a straight seems much less likely

Edited by fixitsan, 11 January 2016 - 11:19 pm.

[NickIAM]

FWIW, I've heard/read that many times too: 'The majority of motorcycle accidents happen on a bend and not involving any other vehicle'.

Where it originally came from, I wouldn't know. But vehicles pulling out on a motorcyclist must be high on the list too.

[fixitsan]

.

FWIW, I've heard/read that many times too: 'The majority of motorcycle accidents happen on a bend and not involving any other vehicle'.

Where it originally came from, I wouldn't know. But vehicles pulling out on a motorcyclist must be high on the list too.

 

 

I can't find the original data, but I remember the comparison between Europe, US and the UK showed similar results....but having said that I'll contradict myself with this report..

 

http://www.mile-munc...fety_035422.pdf

 

It says something different, but then the first section covers how the data was collected and I recall a motoring group like 'Safespeed', or similar, pointed out several flaws which meant that many accidents which should have been recorded, weren't

 

It's very out of date too and I'm unsure if it's ever been updated. The accident causalities are probably still the same these days I guess

 

 

 

BTW, daughter has made other plans so won't be coming tonight anyway

Edited by fixitsan, 12 January 2016 - 09:53 am.

[Studley Ramrod]

Still open to misinterpretation. If you are travelling at 30 mph & I want to maintain 40 mph so feel I need to overtake. Am I permitted to cross the solid white line. 

Being pedantic I know. But you see it happening all the time nowadays.

 

No.

[fixitsan]

No.

I think crossing a solid might be an automatic 'dangerous driving' report, depending on your excuse/circumstances

[RolfieB]

 

No.

You just had to didn't you Studley! 

[NickIAM]

The painful bit is when queuing in stationary traffic along the straight road when there's a solid white line for a long way. Trying to 'filter' (overtake) whilst staying on one's own side of the white line is near impossible; but then so is sitting in the queue, seeing the other side of the road clear of cars; and a clear view for a mile or so.

 

There's a road in the New Forest (Hampshire) like that. Always queuing traffic going into the town. Always the same white line. I do my best to stay on my side; but I confess i don't wait in the queue for long.

 

Oops.   

[Studley Ramrod]

You just had to didn't you Studley! 

 

Yes.

[hvass]

The painful bit is when queuing in stationary traffic along the straight road when there's a solid white line for a long way. Trying to 'filter' (overtake) whilst staying on one's own side of the white line is near impossible; but then so is sitting in the queue, seeing the other side of the road clear of cars; and a clear view for a mile or so.
 
There's a road in the New Forest (Hampshire) like that. Always queuing traffic going into the town. Always the same white line. I do my best to stay on my side; but I confess i don't wait in the queue for long.
 
Oops. 

6(b)..in order to pass a stationary vehicle

[Bjørge]

The painful bit is when queuing in stationary traffic along the straight road when there's a solid white line for a long way. Trying to 'filter' (overtake) whilst staying on one's own side of the white line is near impossible; but then so is sitting in the queue, seeing the other side of the road clear of cars; and a clear view for a mile or so.

 

There's a road in the New Forest (Hampshire) like that. Always queuing traffic going into the town. Always the same white line. I do my best to stay on my side; but I confess i don't wait in the queue for long.

 

Oops. 

 

Anyone does ? I don't take solid, white lines seriously when driving my bike. "Go where there's room" is more of my attitude. Nobody would want me to stay in the lane anyway, taking up precious space.

[Favs]

Just geneally ... Brains are what to use. Paint is what it is. Warning is what it means. Choice is what you make.

[fixitsan]

Just geneally ... Brains are what to use. Paint is what it is. Warning is what it means. Choice is what you make.

 

 

Licence is what you.....

 

As long as you don't get caught 

 

 

I was once sat in a queue in double whitelines in my car and noticed a bike slip up on the outside, on the wrong side of the lines, and then come to an abrupt halt as a tractor pulled out of a side road and became his oncoming traffic, sadly the biker hadn't got a landing spot because the cars were hugging the lines and were nose to tail. In the end he ended up mounting the offside curb to let the tractor past. Much amused by that !

 

Y'all might have clean licences, but I only have  a couple of 3-point slots left to fill....not proud of it, just saying I don't want to fill one in just because i couldn't be arsed waiting a minute

Edited by fixitsan, 13 January 2016 - 04:10 pm.

[NickIAM]

6(b)..in order to pass a stationary vehicle

Hee hee. I KNOW... BUT...

I was told of a court case where this defence was used, and the judge (annoyingly) decided the intended meaning of 'stationary' is parked, not queuing. And this was confirmed by the police on my BikeSafe course and when doing the IAM training.

It's a shame. I feel in such cases bikes should have discretion (as we can tuck in); but as we also know, some riders are idiots...

Oh well, 'You pays yer money and takes yer chances'.

[Geordie Guy]

Yep, herd the same explanation.

[ProudViking]

 

 

Licence is what you.....

 

As long as you don't get caught 

 

 

I was once sat in a queue in double whitelines in my car and noticed a bike slip up on the outside, on the wrong side of the lines, and then come to an abrupt halt as a tractor pulled out of a side road and became his oncoming traffic, sadly the biker hadn't got a landing spot because the cars were hugging the lines and were nose to tail. In the end he ended up mounting the offside curb to let the tractor past. Much amused by that !

 

Y'all might have clean licences, but I only have  a couple of 3-point slots left to fill....not proud of it, just saying I don't want to fill one in just because i couldn't be arsed waiting a minute

I think this would be the tractor driver's fault. He's the one pulling out onto the road. Just because it was a bike overtaking on a solid white line does not excuse the tractor driver, It could've been an emergency vehicle responding to a 999 call.

[fixitsan]

I think this would be the tractor driver's fault. He's the one pulling out onto the road. Just because it was a bike overtaking on a solid white line does not excuse the tractor driver, It could've been an emergency vehicle responding to a 999 call.

 

I understand that view completely, but perhaps the reason for the double solid white lines is because of the farm entrances and hidden access roads ? To be fair I think the tractor driver's view of the biker was obscured by a building....so he glanced and pulled out I guess. Everyone was going slow so there was no danger of a collision.