154 replies to this topic

[wigwamclan]

So does that mean that if I can hear the injector solenoid, the relay within a relay so to speak is working fine?.... and if so, why don't I get the continuity test that the book suggests?
I thought maybe the relay needs a high voltage to work (12.5V+)? but my battery only gives 12.2V...

To help confirm, does anyone else have the same set up as me with the three relays that's done the continuity test and got a different result to me?.... On a working bike of course

[JBX]

So does that mean that if I can hear the injector solenoid, the relay within a relay so to speak is working fine?.... and if so, why don't I get the continuity test that the book suggests?
I thought maybe the relay needs a high voltage to work (12.5V+)? but my battery only gives 12.2V...

To help confirm, does anyone else have the same set up as me with the three relays that's done the continuity test and got a different result to me?.... On a working bike of course

 

Yes the injection relay (aka "main relay") works fine. It also feed the fuel pump so if you can hear it, it's all fine.

 

The relays (Omron) are rated at 9V so they may work fine even in case of battery under-voltage.

 

Check this page : http://cvieth.bplace...elektronik.html

Search the Anlass-Sperrrelais section, it it the same on the 2004'9er.

 

[wigwamclan]

Well, I decided to take the engine bars off so I could see clearly through the timing inspection hole. After half an hour of jiggling and swearing they were off and I had a straight line view. Plugged the timing light in, fired her up waited 'til she was warm an' running between 11 an' 12 hundred revs per the workshop manual instructions and peered inside but no timing mark!.

I thought maybe it was just a little difficult to see so I stopped it, marked it up with Tippex and fired her up again but still no signs. I tried varying the revs but nothing?

 

At this point I thought maybe I'm on the wrong pot (I've found half a dozen faults in the manual) so I switched sides but still no timing mark. I decided to mark the TDC mark with red paint so as not to confuse the two marks and checked it coincided with pot one and it did.

 

My head is now in ruins...how can this even be possible?

[Studley Ramrod]

I think that's correct actually.  The timing mark you should be using is the 'T' mark.

[fixitsan]

I don't think you'll see any mark which shows TDC simply because of the amount of timing advance which will be in play....IIRC about 12 degrees on a niner at idle

[wigwamclan]

I only used the TDC mark to check that pot 1 was at TDC when the mark was visible through the hole.

I don't think you'll see any mark which shows TDC simply because of the amount of timing advance which will be in play....IIRC about 12 degrees on a niner at idle

I'm not actually running the engine and trying to see the TDC mark at the same time, I'm using the T mark to check the timing whilst the bike's running, that's why it's so weird....

Edited by wigwamclan, 25 August 2016 - 11:17 pm.

[JBX]

Well, I decided to take the engine bars off so I could see clearly through the timing inspection hole. After half an hour of jiggling and swearing they were off and I had a straight line view. Plugged the timing light in, fired her up waited 'til she was warm an' running between 11 an' 12 hundred revs per the workshop manual instructions and peered inside but no timing mark!.

I thought maybe it was just a little difficult to see so I stopped it, marked it up with Tippex and fired her up again but still no signs. I tried varying the revs but nothing?

 

At this point I thought maybe I'm on the wrong pot (I've found half a dozen faults in the manual) so I switched sides but still no timing mark. I decided to mark the TDC mark with red paint so as not to confuse the two marks and checked it coincided with pot one and it did.

 

My head is now in ruins...how can this even be possible?

 

This is what it is supposed to do !

Edited by JBX, 26 August 2016 - 12:09 am.

[JBX]

I only used the TDC mark to check that pot 1 was at TDC when the mark was visible through the hole.

I'm not actually running the engine and trying to see the TDC mark at the same time, I'm using the T mark to check the timing whilst the bike's running, that's why it's so weird....

 

Normal procedure to check timing is to run the engine at idle then check the "T" mark thru the timing plug hole with the strobe light on spark plug #1.

Edited by JBX, 26 August 2016 - 12:15 am.

[TYREDNGRUMPEE]

How can what even be possible?

What is so weird?

Are you saying that you are strobing and you are seeing the red paint TDC mark for pot 1 instead of the TippEx T mark that you would expect?

(just saying and asking too, because the language that you are using isn't very clear either way)

If you are, then your timing is ducked and your next action would be to determine whether it is physically mechanically or electronically mistimed.

If this thread follows the normal pattern then, I fully expect you to discover that all is well in timing land even though some of us had fingered the timing three weeks ago.

Edited by TYREDNGRUMPEE, 26 August 2016 - 12:45 am.

[JBX]

How can what even be possible?

What is so weird?

Are you saying that you are strobing and you are seeing the red paint TDC mark for pot 1 instead of the TippEx T mark that you would expect?

(just saying and asking too, because the language that you are using isn't very clear either way)

If you are, then your timing is ducked and your next action would be to determine whether it is physically mechanically or electronically mistimed.

If this thread follows the normal pattern then, I fully expect you to discover that all is well in timing land even though some of us had fingered the timing three weeks ago.

 

Ahah ! I first thought I didn't understand it either because, you know, I'm a frog...

 

WWC : I don't see many reason to check the ignition timing as it cannot be tuned.

The valve timing is another thing, it may be wrong of one tooth or more. You should focus more on this one and on the TPS too.

[wigwamclan]

I feel some clarification is needed so here goes....

 

To check TDC i removed the spark plug from pot 1 (same side as the clutch lever), put a bamboo skewer down the spark plug hole, put the bike in gear (top gear) and turned the back wheel until the bamboo skewer was at its highest point. I then looked through the Timing Plug hole to check for the TDC mark and it was there. This tells me the Woodruff key hasn't failed, and all things being normal the mechanical side of the timing is ok.

 

I then removed the bamboo skewer, replaced the spark plug and connected the timing lamp in series between suppressor cap 1 and spark plug 1, started her up and let her idle until she was up to temperature an' the rpm had settled to a steady 1150 (workshop manual specification).

 

Now, without trying to sound too pretentious,  Ive done this type of thing many, many times before on various machines from boats to diggers, cars, lawn mowers model aircraft etc', and so long as things are ok the timing mark ( on this bike the mark with the 'T' next to it) should be visible through the inspection hole when using the timing lamp...sometimes I may of had to adjust the rpm slightly to get it to align exactly with the timing mark on the case but visible nonetheless.

[wigwamclan]

Has anyone ever had a Crank Position sensor fail?...I've just metered mine an it's well out of spec...the book says between 420 and 569 ohms an' I'm getting 240 ish.....could that be enough to cause the problem maybe?

 

Also, found the book to be wrong AGAIN...what the book tells me is the stationary mark is the timing mark, and the timing mark is actually the TDC mark and vice-versa (has no one else ever noticed this?) so, after realising I should have been looking for the two lines and not the 'T' mark, I'm pretty sure it was running on time at 1150 rpm as I thought I could faintly see two lines but dismissed it as I couldn't see the Tippex

 

 

'If this thread follows the normal pattern then, I fully expect you to discover that all is well in timing land even though some of us had fingered the timing three weeks ago.'......

 

Problem is I've got 4 timing strobes (don't ask) but they're all red light so it makes them difficult to see clearly, even with Tippex and red paint.

 

 

'I then looked through the Timing Plug hole to check for the TDC mark and it was there.'

 

...not sure how I got that wrong but I guess I mustn't have quite reached TDC 'cos of the compression, couple that with the timing and TDC marks being so close together an' I dropped the ball....    but it was nearly midnight

 

I'll apologise now for wasting everyone's time....sorry.

Edited by wigwamclan, 26 August 2016 - 07:02 pm.

[Studley Ramrod]

No need to apologise, no time wasted at all and we've all been flummoxed with problems at times.  It's not always easy trying to explain in text exactly what's happening/not happening.

[wigwamclan]

No need to apologise, no time wasted at all and we've all been flummoxed with problems at times.  It's not always easy trying to explain in text exactly what's happening/not happening.

Thanks Studders,    I appreciate the support m8, six weeks in an' I'm beginning to flag a little...making silly mistakes etc....self doubt creeps in. Think I'll grab an early night

 

 

 

Ahah ! I first thought I didn't understand it either because, you know, I'm a frog...

 

WWC : I don't see many reason to check the ignition timing as it cannot be tuned.

The valve timing is another thing, it may be wrong of one tooth or more. You should focus more on this one and on the TPS too.

 

 

I think in light of the timing being ok I'm going to ignore the poor readings from the crank position sensor and take your advice and check to see if the cams are out......the only thing that's prevented me from doing this sooner is the way it fires up and runs pretty smooth. D'ya think it could do that and still be a tooth out on the cams?....it would explain the poor fuel consumption compared to the 2002 900 I had and the sooty plugs, not to mention the loss of power.

[Studley Ramrod]

Yup, the TDM will run with the timing out a couple of teeth.

[dapleb]

I dont do 9ers but when touring with wee dandywarhol on his 9er .... I wasn't on his 9'er too ... I was on me mk1...which didn't have any issues over 5500mile... anyways...

I remember he had a crank sensor issue after fiddling with cam or summat. Might have been after cam was tooth out. Might be worth sending him a pm to ask if he doesn't read this.

It certainly is poss to be a toof out on these enjuns.

[TYREDNGRUMPEE]

It certainly is poss to be a toof out on these enjuns.

 

Hit that TDC mark. Post some photos of what you find with respect to the alignment marks.

They're not perfect (given wear and tear), so don't despair and also take time to look at the punch marks on each camshaft between their respective sprockets and carriers.

Photos will help experience on this forum guide you and save confusion.

 

A recent example from an 850 here

Note that the first picture (wear and tear), shows the correct alignment (for this particular 850),    (demonstrating that you'll be wanting the backup of experience and therefore photos)

Edited by TYREDNGRUMPEE, 27 August 2016 - 10:05 am.

[wigwamclan]

Well I finally got round to taking the cam cover of an' guess what....it's out TWO teeth!!!  How?  have they got a dodgy cam chain tensioner?...I can't seem to find anything wrong with it..

 

How has this thing even been running?......has the ECU been compensating for it?

Edited by wigwamclan, 31 August 2016 - 03:22 pm.

[Studley Ramrod]

They will run with the timing out.  It may be you need the newer, revised Camchain tensioner.  Have a look here, in particular post No. 22 

 

http://www.carpe-tdm...?showtopic=6180

[dandywarhol]

I dont do 9ers but when touring with wee dandywarhol on his 9er .... I wasn't on his 9'er too ... I was on me mk1...which didn't have any issues over 5500mile... anyways...

I remember he had a crank sensor issue after fiddling with cam or summat. Might have been after cam was tooth out. Might be worth sending him a pm to ask if he doesn't read this.

It certainly is poss to be a toof out on these enjuns.

 

And you conveniently forgot about shaggin' yer fork seals in the 5500 miles, even though we changed the feckin' frocks before we left  . Mine didn't have a crank sensor fault but before I changed my chain tensioner, I had my engine run at a tooth or two out(even with high lift cams)  which confused the cam sensor and the cam's relative position to the crank. I'm sure this caused my engine's ECU to have the occasional brain fart. A new tensioner sorted it.

Edited by dandywarhol, 31 August 2016 - 07:16 pm.