Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Low(Ish) Speed Lunging/surging


  • Please log in to reply
278 replies to this topic

#141 frits44

frits44

    Carpe fan

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 170 posts
  • TDM model: 2010

Posted 22 May 2016 - 03:45 pm

I don't see the point to moving it Frits....what if the results are not how you like after moving it....you need to move it a little bit more, and so on. Resistors can do that job quite well. I think the sensor is in a near optimum position, but then again at the moment I am running with two long snorkels, so the air isn't moving over the sensor as much as if the snorkel next to it was an original shorter one.

 

Anyway, the timing diagram I posted, 10 degrees of static timing at low revs - I cannot think of another engine I have seen which runs such retarded ignition values. by 1200rpm most are over 15 degrees, some are nearly at 20. This is why I feel that advancing the timing is a step in the right direction

Ok that is clear Thanks



#142 fixitsan

fixitsan

    Carpe Citizen

  • Supporting Member(thanks)
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,813 posts
  • Location:West Lothian
  • TDM model: 2003

Posted 22 May 2016 - 04:02 pm

Just out of interest I will try to get a temperature probe in the airbox....but thinking about it I can just use the resistance of the temperature sensor to get to temperature.

 

I think the designers will have accounted for a difference due to the sensor being mounted in a black heat radiant airbox, their tests will have told them that the sensor isn't in a bad position, and any correction needed will probably have been already applied. I can't see a difference of  a couple of degrees being very relevant


Edited by fixitsan, 22 May 2016 - 04:04 pm.

900 with better bits. Owes me nothing, Makes me smile


#143 adamg

adamg

    Carpe Regular

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 116 posts
  • TDM model: 2003

Posted 22 May 2016 - 05:47 pm

I don't see the point to moving it Frits....what if the results are not how you like after moving it....you need to move it a little bit more, and so on. Resistors can do that job quite well. I think the sensor is in a near optimum position, but then again at the moment I am running with two long snorkels, so the air isn't moving over the sensor as much as if the snorkel next to it was an original shorter one.
 
Anyway, the timing diagram I posted, 10 degrees of static timing at low revs - I cannot think of another engine I have seen which runs such retarded ignition values. by 1200rpm most are over 15 degrees, some are nearly at 20. This is why I feel that advancing the timing is a step in the right direction


Has anyone succeeded in adjusting the ignition timing electronically (ideally variably with revs)? Advancing by a constant 5 degrees across the board sounds like a step in the right direction but I'm a control freak...

#144 fixitsan

fixitsan

    Carpe Citizen

  • Supporting Member(thanks)
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,813 posts
  • Location:West Lothian
  • TDM model: 2003

Posted 22 May 2016 - 07:14 pm

Has anyone succeeded in adjusting the ignition timing electronically (ideally variably with revs)? Advancing by a constant 5 degrees across the board sounds like a step in the right direction but I'm a control freak...

 

Once you change it like I did you won't think it could really be improved much more...but here's a few things to think about

 

- The ignition is controlled by the ECU, you need to reprogram the ECU to adjust the timing, you cannot fit a separate programmable timing box (actually you can, but you need to fool the ECU into thinking that it still controls the coils)

 

- 5 degrees across the board....why not 5.34 , or 4.73? If ultimate control is the goal then ultimate precision is a requirement. How could you achieve that precision ? Is it practical on a cost vs return basis ? would you notice a difference ?

 

- I was going to make an electronic device which captures the ignition pickup coil signal and through software advances or retards the output tot he ECU to fool it. It was so much easier just to grind a couple of slots in the pickup mounting holes though. What gains can be made by going electronic ?

 

- Advance curve which is currently used - what is wrong with it ?

 

 

- Lastly (and very importantly) how will you adjust the timing based on engine load. Setting, for example 30 degrees of advance at 3500rpm with no load is fine, but under load you will probably need more advance....so you would need to tap into the throttle position sensor, or the intake pressure sensor to infer the load..... Starting to get tricky now....why not buy a fully programmable ECU for £330 and take control of everything ?


Edited by fixitsan, 22 May 2016 - 07:31 pm.

900 with better bits. Owes me nothing, Makes me smile


#145 Jole

Jole

    sticking around

  • Member
  • 26 posts
  • Location:Croatia
  • TDM model: 2010

Posted 22 May 2016 - 08:43 pm

I am not fan of too sophisticated mods . With 15 teeth sprocket I have more usefull range in RPM's , better response on throttle and less playing with clutch in city .

Totally different bike , and yes , now sometimes I use 6th gear  :P .

BTW I would like to get information about TDM real horse power on wheel . Some bikes show more or less same readings on dyno test as per manufacturer specification . I was disappointed when I realised that I payed for 86 HP , and some test shows not more than 72-74 HP.



#146 fixitsan

fixitsan

    Carpe Citizen

  • Supporting Member(thanks)
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,813 posts
  • Location:West Lothian
  • TDM model: 2003

Posted 22 May 2016 - 09:26 pm

74HP - 76HP at the wheel.......in most listings I find.

 

fitting a 15 tooth sprocket recovers what you've lost ;)


900 with better bits. Owes me nothing, Makes me smile


#147 frits44

frits44

    Carpe fan

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 170 posts
  • TDM model: 2010

Posted 23 May 2016 - 08:14 am

fixitsan,

 

I have a question,

 

Why not use a clamp on filter for the TDM 900 like this one on the net.?????

 

And locate the sensor between it somehow.

 

https://www.telemati...eter-Air-Filter

 

What do you think.????

 

Greetings, Frits from holland



#148 fixitsan

fixitsan

    Carpe Citizen

  • Supporting Member(thanks)
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,813 posts
  • Location:West Lothian
  • TDM model: 2003

Posted 23 May 2016 - 08:22 am

As well as the sensor, there is also the engine crankcase breather hose to relocate.

 

Is there going to be more airflow, than the modification to the airbox cover already gives ? The area of the filter looks to be quite small compared to the standard large plate filter.

 

Will it draw more cooler air ? Have we measured the temperature in the airbox yet or are we guessing ? 2 of those filters cost £56.80...a digital thermometer costs £0.90 http://www.ebay.co.u...507&rk=1&rkt=1


900 with better bits. Owes me nothing, Makes me smile


#149 frits44

frits44

    Carpe fan

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 170 posts
  • TDM model: 2010

Posted 23 May 2016 - 12:16 pm

As well as the sensor, there is also the engine crankcase breather hose to relocate.

 

Is there going to be more airflow, than the modification to the airbox cover already gives ? The area of the filter looks to be quite small compared to the standard large plate filter.

 

Will it draw more cooler air ? Have we measured the temperature in the airbox yet or are we guessing ? 2 of those filters cost £56.80...a digital thermometer costs £0.90 http://www.ebay.co.u...507&rk=1&rkt=1

 

Ok, 

 

Today I am going too relocate my IAT sensor too test it, and I did buy a digital thermometer and put it in the place of the IAT sensor.

 

So I can measure the difference in celsius.

 

I will let you know.

 

It is bad weather here lots of rain.

 

 

Greetings, Frits from holland



#150 fixitsan

fixitsan

    Carpe Citizen

  • Supporting Member(thanks)
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,813 posts
  • Location:West Lothian
  • TDM model: 2003

Posted 23 May 2016 - 12:56 pm

Alternatively, just measure the resistance of the sensor in it's current position and it's resistance in the new position. The difference in resistance between the two will tell you the change in temperature


900 with better bits. Owes me nothing, Makes me smile


#151 adamg

adamg

    Carpe Regular

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 116 posts
  • TDM model: 2003

Posted 23 May 2016 - 01:07 pm

 

why not buy a fully programmable ECU for £330 and take control of everything

 

Has anyone done this? I would have thought it would be a nightmare to know what to use as the starting lookup tables for fuelling and ignition (prior to tinckering)?



#152 fixitsan

fixitsan

    Carpe Citizen

  • Supporting Member(thanks)
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,813 posts
  • Location:West Lothian
  • TDM model: 2003

Posted 23 May 2016 - 01:22 pm

 

Has anyone done this? I would have thought it would be a nightmare to know what to use as the starting lookup tables for fuelling and ignition (prior to tinckering)?

 

I've looked hard at it, in particular the Microsquirt. (small version of a Megasquirt)

 

I've talked to the makers and they confirmed that the sensors on the TDM900 are already suitable.

The engine comes with good rough ballpark tables, but as well as being able to dyno the bike to fine tune it, there is the possibility of the ECU self learning the best parameters. I didn't look into the latter too closely.

 

The 900 ECU talks to the dash, so if you replace it then you have no dash.....But you could fool the ECU into thinking it is still connected to the coils and injectors by replacing those connections with connections to resistors.

 

As long as the bike's ECU doesn't use explicit cycle monitoring, in other words doesn't check that the changes it makes create a desired response from the engine, then it shouldn't throw up an error to the dash.

 

The Microsquirt will need to share sensors with the ECU, and again from a chat with the makers it seems that they can do that without causing a problem, I think most of the inputs are isolated where they need to be.

 

 

Of course, this is all hearsay until it gets done, but i know that if ever I considerd a Power Commander I would probably go the whole hog and for not much more gain control of everything. The problem with a Power Commander is that it does away with feedback, everything is table based, and the injector pulse lengths don't appear to be centred, they just seem to open the injector for longer, not longer AND sooner, as far as I know....but I'm happy to be corrected there !


900 with better bits. Owes me nothing, Makes me smile


#153 frits44

frits44

    Carpe fan

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 170 posts
  • TDM model: 2010

Posted 24 May 2016 - 04:30 pm

Relocated the IAT sensor from my air box, I put it in the front of the bike behind the headlights on the right side free in the out air.

 

I did a few tests with a digital thermometer, inside and out site my air box too measure the temperature in the air box.

 

I notice before with a test ride that the out side temperature was 23 celsius and my IAT sensor in my air box gave 44 celsius and up while standing still.

 

I isolated my air box on the outside with aluminum heat folio too test it that it won't  not become so hot again.

 

Test it today and I am very glad with the results, must say it was colder today 15 celsius.

 

In city traffic the engine is much cooler now, the IAT sensor was too hot inside the air box and there for the ECU was lean on the fuel

 

and the engine went overheated .And the coolant sensor on your dash went up very fast.

 

The test ride today out side temperature was 15 celsius and in my air box still hot.

 

Watch my video and you now what I mean.

 

My english is still bad sorry for that.

 

Greetings, from Holland

 



#154 fixitsan

fixitsan

    Carpe Citizen

  • Supporting Member(thanks)
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,813 posts
  • Location:West Lothian
  • TDM model: 2003

Posted 24 May 2016 - 10:41 pm

Good work Frits

Now at 50mph, with 2500rpm, airbox will be much cooler, no ? The volume of air required will cause the airbox to cool

900 with better bits. Owes me nothing, Makes me smile


#155 Catteeclan

Catteeclan

    full o shoite

  • Supporting Member(thanks)
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,523 posts
  • Location:Gorleston Norfolk
  • TDM model: 2002

Posted 25 May 2016 - 06:00 am

Be more accurate if Yamaha stuck the thing in one of the down tubes from the air box, if you're not trying to trick the ecu into giving more fuel.


2002 TDM900 Yellow


#156 Kelpie

Kelpie

    900 going for ... 1000cc?

  • Supporting Member(thanks)
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 944 posts
  • Location:Wiltshire
  • TDM model: 2010

Posted 25 May 2016 - 07:18 am

I'm so glad our bikes don't suffer from this. It's all terribly complicated! :lol:
You don't need balls to ride a big bike.

#157 frits44

frits44

    Carpe fan

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 170 posts
  • TDM model: 2010

Posted 25 May 2016 - 08:10 am

Good work Frits

Now at 50mph, with 2500rpm, airbox will be much cooler, no ? The volume of air required will cause the airbox to cool

 

Good morning fixitsan,

 

I did test ride for about 100 km this way and the temperature in my air box did not drop with any speed. (  about 33 celsius)

 

When I stopped with engine running, the temperature went up to 38 celsius with this colt out side temperature of 15 celsius.

 

So the air box becomes still to hot. With higher out side temperatures it will be hotter I think.

 

I think it is better for the machine to relocate your IAT sensor in a cool place out side your air box, and away from the engine heat.

 

It is a very nice mod it drives easier and handles much better on the throttle and not so nervous.

 

And in low speed  city traffic your engine is much cooler now, but you understand that why that is.

 

You see now what the machine can do in my short movie.

 

The acceleration is great now with this cool IAT sensor.

 

Thanks for the help and info.

 

Greetings, Frits from Holland



#158 fixitsan

fixitsan

    Carpe Citizen

  • Supporting Member(thanks)
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,813 posts
  • Location:West Lothian
  • TDM model: 2003

Posted 25 May 2016 - 08:13 am

Be more accurate if Yamaha stuck the thing in one of the down tubes from the air box, if you're not trying to trick the ecu into giving more fuel.


The critical thing is that the sensor output is proportional to air temp.....even if you alter the output for more fuel. The worst situation is to have the sensor in an airflow which isn't changing temperature in the same way as the air going into the engine is

900 with better bits. Owes me nothing, Makes me smile


#159 frits44

frits44

    Carpe fan

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 170 posts
  • TDM model: 2010

Posted 25 May 2016 - 08:18 am

Be more accurate if Yamaha stuck the thing in one of the down tubes from the air box, if you're not trying to trick the ecu into giving more fuel.

 

Because of the emissions and euro 3 or 4 norm your exhaust gas must be clean.

The sensor becomes so hot that the ECU gives a tiny little bit of fuel.

It is a trick from the fabric to get very low Co2 .

 

Thats why I chanced  and now the IAT sensor can measure the real out side temperature.

The sensors and the ECU do the rest for the calculation how to run for the best.

 

I hope you understand,

 

Greetings, Frits from Holland



#160 frits44

frits44

    Carpe fan

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 170 posts
  • TDM model: 2010

Posted 25 May 2016 - 08:34 am

It is true that the air box above your engine takes over the engine heat and so the IAT sensor becomes very hot.

 

The thick plastic of the air box becomes very hot and so the IAT sensor.

 

When your engine is running  and you are standing still with the bike warm air comes in the air inlet,

 

but when you are driving it sucks the out side air in.

 

I will do some other tests for the colt air inlet.

 

I am going too try the inlet pipes from a Goldwing gl 1500 air box or something like it.

 

Greetings, Frits from Holland




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users