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Have You Had An Ecu Remap ?


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#41 fixitsan

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 10:20 pm

When i had the Alfa the thing to do was to remap it. 1.9 turbo diesel) .


Well, some people went nuts and went for the max torque map.....the gearbox was barely strong enough anyway, but it was usually just a matter of months after having the remap that they started posting messages titled ' anyone got a gearbox' or 'dual mass flywheel and clutch implosion'


All I'm trying to say is make sure you're clutch is up to it, and that you only use very clutch friendly oil.......because i suspect the torque curve of this engine will change considerably and you'll get it all in low gears too. :) :)

Ive looked at lots of posts and not seen any mention of gearbox probs - mine has 93k miles on it and it's still clickety-ckick so you should be fine there imho


Edited by fixitsan, 05 February 2016 - 11:42 pm.

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#42 adamg

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 08:43 am

Thats encouraging mate. Price is steep-ish..... but i take the same view as you regarding power commanders - at that price its a bit much for something which can only operate within the bounds of the standard map.
standatd maos are designed to cover every instance of fuel quality, every rider skill level (not too thrusty) and so on.
ask hin if he'll restore it for free should you not like it .......but i think there'll be an interesting post from you here ob that day :)
I


Isn't the point of PC3s that you can replace the standard map across the rev range to optimise fuel to air ratio?

#43 arthurbikemad

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 12:33 pm

Mapping the ECU is always a great option... But Power Commanders do have a lot to offer, one (for some people) is most if not all dyno centers can map them, they are easy to back up, you can run two maps (Hub needed for PC3) and you can backup and remove it yourself. Also depending on the ECU depends on how fine the mapping can be done, other features can also be set with some ECU's, for example TuneBoy on Triumph and Ducati for example you can change fan trip temps, lambda on or off and so on.. What's more important is the mapping, some ECU's the overall AFR can be set and that's it, no option for multiple throttle positions or rev range, for example the PCV has 10 throttle positions that can be mapped at each 250RPM from 0 to HERO, this gives the tuner the ability to create a table that gives a smooth spread of power across the rev range. Power commanders are used widely for mapping and have been for years. Nothing wrong with ECU mapping but I have found many who map ECU's are unable to answer some of the basic questions, most Ducati's the ECU's can have any number of throttle positions mapped and rev range points added, also a table for each gear and so on, I did a ZZR1400 with Autotune and it had 24 fuel tables for the fixed map and another 24 for Autotune, it can be complex! As for mapping an ECU by post, well.... hard to custom map a bike that is not on a dyno of one form or another.. :)

 

I don't know of any details for mapping the TDM ECU, some screen shots of the mapping would be great, how many throttle positions do they map, how fine across the range is the mapping, how much fuel can be added and so on, all of these questions relate to PC3 as are commonly known features.. :)


Edited by arthurbikemad, 06 February 2016 - 12:36 pm.

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#44 ProudViking

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 12:43 pm

Am I going to be a Guinea Pig? I have no problem with it, just let me know what you want me to find out, or take pics of, or questions to ask and I'll make a wee report.



#45 fixitsan

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 01:27 pm

Isn't the point of PC3s that you can replace the standard map across the rev range to optimise fuel to air ratio?


My knowledge of PC3 is sketchy. Does it adjust ignition timing to suit the 'corrected' afr and injection time ? Im not sure, but to tune properly i know you need to be alter ignition timing as much as afr in order to get the best result

how does a PC3 measure afr ? If it just uses the lambda sensor outputand isnt adjusting the ignition timing map then all it is doing is boosting or cutting fueling to suit the factory ignition maps.


As for the cost of a PC3.....well aren't replacement fully programmable ECU's only slightly more costly but infinitely more programmable ?

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#46 fixitsan

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 08:56 pm

Am I going to be a Guinea Pig? I have no problem with it, ju st let me know what you want me to find out, or take pics of, or questions to ask and I'll make a wee report.

 

 I'ld be curious about - what program he loads up on the PC to read the ECU.....and what program he uses to modify the maps (do either of them have the Yamaha logo or are the more generic packages) ?

 

 Ask him how hard it would be to reprogram the immobiliser code in the ECU for use another bike - that makes it easy for you to sell (Assuming yours has Immo ?)


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#47 sidestand

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 11:20 am

Think you'll find that Geoff has programmed his own software to read ECU's - it's not generic off the shelf stuff

His software 'reverse engineers' the bike manufacturer's programming & basically puts it back together minus some of the stuff they have to put in to meet emissions regs.

 

He reckons that manufacturers diagnostics won't find his software .....so it's not really a declarable 'modification' on your insurance, as its invisible  :)

 

 

I've attached the before & after dyno chart from when I had mine done  - it's better than the 12 bhp I said initially - over 20 in fact, but you can see how it puls like a train right up to the red line now    :good:

Attached Files


Edited by sidestand, 07 February 2016 - 11:24 am.

post-1-1150550726.gifpost-1-1150559830.gifpost-1-1152402501.jpgThe older I get, the better I was

96 MkII in yellow & silver with bluespots, braided lines, Remus 2 into 1, Hagon rear shock & fork springs, bashplate, heated grips,Motech pannier racks, Road Attacks, Jockoiler, Baglux tank cover & bag. Gone to a far better place - hasn't it Remo?
Another 96 Mk2 in yellow & silver - absolutely standard & pristine ( apart from a butchered rear mudguard - but I'm looking for a new one
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'80 Yamaha XT250 mudplugger
another '81 XT250
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1996 Kawasaki KH125 Stroker

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BMW K1300R

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BMW S1000XR in white 


#48 fixitsan

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 01:45 pm

He probably does what all good tuners do and use some non-standard software. i can't see why anyone would write their own custom reading software , when  the ECU hacking community have dozens already available. 

 

I would personally be happy to sacrifice top end power on any low revving engine in favour of torque....you can't have more power without more torque anyway, given that power = torque x rpm

 

But generally speaking, getting your fueling _and_ ignition remapped at the same time, by someone who really knows their game, with a dyno that's used for race teams too, has got to be a solid way to go.

 

 

I still feel that a Power Commander is a lot of money for only half a tune.....if you cannot adjust the ignition timing in different gears to suit new levels of fueling you're probably not running the best tune

 

The site I linked to shows the guy has got both the ignition map, the Alpha-n fuel map, and most likely the TPS fuel map too.  The Power commander just works around the stock map......nice and it works, but with limits.

 

Apparently this was read using the standard Yamaha reading software, presumably he needed to modify the checksum after changes were made.

 

 

 

 

The screenshot above was downloaded from the ECU hacking forum thread here http://ecuhacking.ac.../yamaha-tdm900/


Edited by fixitsan, 07 February 2016 - 01:50 pm.

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#49 ramo

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 07:16 pm

well looking at the times on Micks sheet, whatever he did, 

 

it only took about 1/2 an hour ?

 

thats some dosh he makes,kin el

 

are those times right Mick?



#50 adamg

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 07:18 pm

My knowledge of PC3 is sketchy. Does it adjust ignition timing to suit the 'corrected' afr and injection time ? Im not sure, but to tune properly i know you need to be alter ignition timing as much as afr in order to get the best result
how does a PC3 measure afr ? If it just uses the lambda sensor outputand isnt adjusting the ignition timing map then all it is doing is boosting or cutting fueling to suit the factory ignition maps.
As for the cost of a PC3.....well aren't replacement fully programmable ECU's only slightly more costly but infinitely more programmable ?


Most pc3 maps are for disconnected o2 sensors, I think? The pc3 runs whatever afr you want. It solves suboptimal maps loaded by factories to pass emissions tests and corrects for freer flowing exhausts. It doesn't touch the ignition timing but I've always thought that was only for racers with hot cams..?

#51 sidestand

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 08:09 pm

Times are right - with loading, connecting/disconnecting etc - was about an hour  - he did six of us between 8.30 & 2.00pm 

 

a lot of the time between readings was letting the computer sort out the ECU re-programming. Was entertaining listening to Geoff explaining the process - most of went over my head though.

 

Going inside the Dyno chamber when the bike is being tested is an experience - the engine being revved to the limiter  :lol:


post-1-1150550726.gifpost-1-1150559830.gifpost-1-1152402501.jpgThe older I get, the better I was

96 MkII in yellow & silver with bluespots, braided lines, Remus 2 into 1, Hagon rear shock & fork springs, bashplate, heated grips,Motech pannier racks, Road Attacks, Jockoiler, Baglux tank cover & bag. Gone to a far better place - hasn't it Remo?
Another 96 Mk2 in yellow & silver - absolutely standard & pristine ( apart from a butchered rear mudguard - but I'm looking for a new one
'76 Suzuki GT500 Stroker in need of a rebuild
'80 Yamaha XT250 mudplugger
another '81 XT250
'91 BMW R80GS - this one really will do a RTW trip
'05 BMW K1200S - inline four with a shaft
'10 BMW R1200GSA Anniversary Edition
'02 Fazer 1000 - 4 carbs are better than 2 ! - water pump rebuilt by Mr Ramrod Engineering
'00 Triumph Adventurer - Cruiser with a difference - British & a triple
Gary's Bathtub - '99 BMW K1200RS in luvverly pillarbox red . Now been Waspycycled to Nuneaton
And the Latest Addition - a nice BMW G650 XCountry greenlaner - on long term loan to Boy Wonder

1996 Kawasaki KH125 Stroker

2000 TDM Mk2A - nicely Studleyfied - Modified by Masterbrewer, but we've fixed that now !

BMW K1300R

2004 TDM 900 in Silver/Blue - heated grips, MRA vary screen, Wilbers rear shock & engine bars to fit 

BMW S1000XR in white 


#52 fixitsan

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 08:25 pm

Most pc3 maps are for disconnected o2 sensors, I think? The pc3 runs whatever afr you want. It solves suboptimal maps loaded by factories to pass emissions tests and corrects for freer flowing exhausts. It doesn't touch the ignition timing but I've always thought that was only for racers with hot cams..?

 

 

it needs to be remembered that ignition timing advance is carefully controlled because of the amount of time it takes to burn  a cylinder full of mixture. in order to gain torque from the mixture at high revs you need to start the ignition a long way before the piston reaches top dead centre, to ensure that you're creating the maximum pressure at the same time as the piston is able to maximise the explosive effects on the downward stroke.

 

The factory set the timing maps with the factory fuel injected volume in mind.

 

The 'correct' fuel/air mixture is 14.7:1

The maximum power mixture is about 13:1

 

assuming the Power commander tries to give you a  13:1 mixture instead of a 14.7:1 mixture is that you get a faster burning mixture. Ideally you need to retard the timing of the spark because the best time to reach peak cylinder pressure is at about 15 degrees after TDC

 

If we just improve the mixture to be more powerful, and to burn more quickly, and we don't retard the timing, the peak cylinder pressure occurs too soon and we can lose a lot of the benift of having that improved fuel/air ratio

 

 

Of course that is not to say that adding more fuel to correct a sub optimal afr will not get you more power, but if you aren't adjusting the timing accordingly you're not making the most efficient use of the extra fuel.

 

Timing advance curves for different camshaft durations are relevant and do need pointing out, but usually because of almost the same reason - with a longer duration intake then you draw in  more of the mixture and increase the burn time, hence why  longer duration cams generally need more advanced timing.

 

A problem which can occur when the timing is too retarded, is that the cylinder contents are still burning and don't exhaust properly when the piston is on the exhaust stroke, to the point that when the piston next goes down, for the next intake stroke, there are exhaust gasses still being formed in the cylinder. Ideally you want all the exhaust gasses to leave the cylinder under it's own momentum, so that when the intake valve opens there is no exhaust gasses lingering, the exiting exhaust should be helping to create a draw to encourage the mixture on the inlet to move more rapidly. The valve overlap between exhaust and intake is fixed by the cam, so I guess that becomes a limit ot how far you can go with regards to filling the cylinder and setting the timing, for any particular camshaft

 

 

I'll be honest too. I've never worked as a tuner or as a dyno operator, but to keep it simple - why adjust only the AFR  when it is suboptimal, the timing is set for a broad range of riding styles and fuel qualities, as well as charge volumes.....why not also tune the ignition timing too in order to get the most efficient use of the extra fuel you're burning ?


Edited by fixitsan, 07 February 2016 - 08:39 pm.

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#53 adamg

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 10:08 pm

No doubt that's correct. My limited understanding is that it's a trade off on a law of diminishing returns. The standard maps are shite. They are designed to pass tests with ridiculous air intake flaps to pass induction noise rules. Sort that and remove lambda sensors and big gains are there. You may also want to correct for ignition timing and durations (cams). Then you're looking at bigger money for smaller improvements.

#54 fixitsan

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 10:25 pm

Then you're looking at bigger money for smaller improvements.

 

 

 

 

...or just slightly more money to do it right......


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#55 fixitsan

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 10:44 pm

Just a thought, has anyone advanced the standard ignition timing ? Typically achieved by moving the pickup coil position, which for this engine would mean elongating it's mounting holes a couple of mm.

 

It was one of the first mods to do on the old FJ's to get the engine to liven up......not that it was short of power in the first place, but it's usually an easy gain to get


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#56 fixitsan

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 11:43 pm

This shows an example of how critical ignition tuning can be in certain circumstances, compared to AFR tuning.

 

The runs start at about 1:20, the results come towards the end

 


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#57 dandywarhol

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 09:52 pm

This shows an example of how critical ignition tuning can be in certain circumstances, compared to AFR tuning.

 

The runs start at about 1:20, the results come towards the end

 

 

I was under the impression that car manufacturers have the ignition timing set as far advanced as possible before the knock sensor detects pinging and automatically retards the timing. I know my old SLK230 runs quicker on super unleaded cos I'm convinced the timing is retarded by the knock sensor if I use regular fuel.

 

The PC3 only alters fuelling, the PC5 incorporates an ignition mapper in it's software.

 

I'm enjoying your posts Mrfixit - what's your background, if you don't mind me asking?


Think you'll find that Geoff has programmed his own software to read ECU's - it's not generic off the shelf stuff

His software 'reverse engineers' the bike manufacturer's programming & basically puts it back together minus some of the stuff they have to put in to meet emissions regs.

 

He reckons that manufacturers diagnostics won't find his software .....so it's not really a declarable 'modification' on your insurance, as its invisible  :)

 

 

I've attached the before & after dyno chart from when I had mine done  - it's better than the 12 bhp I said initially - over 20 in fact, but you can see how it puls like a train right up to the red line now    :good:

 

Did he take a plug lead off for the first run Sidey?  :rotflmmfao:


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#58 fixitsan

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 09:15 am

There are times the knock sensor will be used to protect against too much advance, all the time in fact, but the reason knock sensors became widely used across cars built in one factory and destined for use in other markets is because fuel quality is so variable. A lower octane fuel is more prone to knock, Brazillian cars (Brazil has some particularly poor fuel) with automatic knock detection, will keep the timing much less advanced than if the same car were picked up and put in the USA and fed premium 97 or 98 RON (equivalent) fuel.

 

Knock, pre-ignition, is one of the most destructive transient problems and engine can have and a high performance turbo'd engine can be destroyed in seconds by knock

 

Running maximum advance is not the absolute best way to get more power as I and most people have at once time thought. You only need maximum power when you put the engine under high loads,, so attempts to save fuel by leaning the mixture out and setting the timing later and earlier and other  attempts to create a smoother light load cruise feeling and other characteristics, are implemented by playing with the timing away from what might have been thought to be the 'best power' timing.

 

The maximum pressure peak is timed to come at between 15-20 after TDC.  Depending on the fuel quality, barometric pressure (if using carbs particularly), mixture ratio (tied to barometric pressure), calculated load demand (figured out by the ECU), the timing should be moved to put the maximum pressure peak  at the correct time - and that is all you can say about where the timing should be - it should be where it needs to be in order to get best power from the current parameters and load conditions - in order to maximise efficiency. But it's noted by many tuners, and perhaps it is particularly obvious with turbo and supercharged cars, that maximum power isn't at maximum safe advance all of the time.

 

Turbo'd cars suffer knock readily, and the 'thing to do' is to turn the mixture ratio down low, sometimes to 10:1 , when the knocking stops and more power is felt. But what a lot of tuners have seen is that by retarding the timing they bring the peak pressure back to where it should be. Enrichening a knocking engine works because the mixture is being overloaded and combustion is being slowed, so knock is prevented and the slower burning mixture develops peak pressure later. The difference in the amount of power generated between retarding the timing of the knocking mixture, and adding more fuel to stop the knocking, is sometimes negligible.

 

 

It's probably impossible to talk about this sort of thing in a couple of messages and do it any real justice, because as far as I'm concerned, proper tuning, not just 'tuning to get a quick jump in power and make sure there's no knocking'  , is a real artform.

 

 

Our bikes don't have knock sensors, and dealers in different world regions may even have to reflash software in some bikes to account for the fuel quality. (I know some car dealers have had to do this in the past)......or perhaps the mechanics just note that when they set bikes up as part of a service they always seem to have to retard the timing in poor fuel quality areas. Who knows ?....that information is 'out there', somewhere.

 

 

 

You asked about my background. It's probably the same as most bikers with a  bit of mechanical aptitude, family members were in engineering so exposure to the topics at a young age was inevitable. Meccano was a key influence in teaching me the basics  :). Parents thought I would get in trouble on street corners so my dad dragged me to nightschool to gain City and Guilds in amateur radio (ham radio) when I was 14. Bored to the back teeth with school and didn't want to go to university because 'it was just for posh kids' (possibly a mistake), I tried the Army (REME), passed a gruelling 3 month  potential officer candidate selection course (1 of 3 finishers from a class of 35), and some basic training at Deepcut (one and only), it came to signing up for a minimum 9 years and I thought I would have more fun by going to civvy street (another mistake perhaps)....so then my interest in photography got me a job in a film processing lab in Leeds, where I ran the chemistry, processed the films and did all the machine maintenance in downtime....found I enjoyed maintenance work a lot and got a job starting in Edinburgh when I was 22 servicing medium volume photocopiers. I've been in the printing industry most of the time since then. Always loved cars, passed my test 3 weeks after 17th birthday and have always done my own MOT work. After being in Scotland for a few years I got into bikes (mum was a nurse so it wasn't allowed back home) and did my training in Cupar....had a bike most of the time since then. Took a couple of years from printing to do despatch riding , didn't get rich, but almost got lost having too much fun......then got married and steadied myself in printing again.....then did some chef training......then tried to get into teaching but needed that  degree that only posh kids did, so at 36 I started at Edinburgh Napier on a Mechatronics degree to consolidate my experience and fill some gaps in my knowledge, finished when I was 40, then was told I needed to do higher English literature for a year in order to get to teacher training college, but I needed to get back into work to pay the mortgage and got a good job on the back of my degree, back in printing, in the banking sector on high volume inkjet systems. (I'm second on the right in the picture below)  Mostly I work with continuous printing systems, large reels of paper weighing nearly a ton, running through machines at 150m/min , you haven't seen a real papercut until you see what the edge of that can do ! For the past 20 years I've been into programming microcontrollers (and PLC's for my work) hence my interest in ECU programming and all that jazz.  

 

I still haven't done half the things I think I want to do, but when i get out on the bike none of that seems to matter really :)

 

 

Chris


Edited by fixitsan, 11 February 2016 - 09:16 am.

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#59 fixitsan

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 09:29 am

Here's what i'm normally inside/underneath/getting sprayed with ink by....it really is only working the same as a home printer.....the 80 printheads cost about £8000 each so my customers have to keep them working 24/7 to make them pay

 


Edited by fixitsan, 11 February 2016 - 09:32 am.

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#60 Rallyist

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Posted 11 February 2016 - 10:06 am

So much for a 'Paperless Society'


For a challenging summer try the

Round Britain Rally.....  




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