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#21 fixitsan

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 10:01 pm

If anyone is interested in another device I'm working on......

...it's an economy meter, it uses 5 led's to indicate relative fuel flow rates, by taking an input directly from one of the injector drive signals. The idea is to make something which gives the chance to see what is the most fuel efficient way to ride, in terms of gears and rpm......higher rpm in a lower gear, or lower rpm in a higher gear, for any given load and speed. I hope to finish it off once I'm done installing the DRL controller prototype.

 

It could use more than 5 led's..... but that's my starting point


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#22 Catteeclan

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 06:58 am

Interesting, although most cars now have an indicator on the dash wanting you to change up earlier.


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#23 fixitsan

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 08:48 am

Interesting, although most cars now have an indicator on the dash wanting you to change up earlier.

 

 

Cars ? What are dey ?  ;)

In truth my car has such trickery too, and that's partly what gave me the idea. Petrol engines are most efficient at 100% load, and then at the rpms when when the engine is producing the most torque it is at it's most practical efficiency (at about 5000rpm for the 9er). But at lower loads, 30% for example, the most efficient rpm isn't necessarily still at 5000. The higher the rpm the more intake cycles there are, which means more fuel injection cycles, and those injection cycles will meter less fuel than if you choose a gear which requires 3500, which needs a little more throttle opening, but has 30% fewer intake cycles.

 

 

(Diesel peak efficiency is at about 65% load, which explains why my dashboard indications have me changing up gear even when my foot is flat to the floor !)

 

 

Although the manufacturers select gear ratios to give the best riding experience based on the engine's torque curve, a small nod is given to efficiency, but I think generally speaking 'riding efficiently' is a situation left for the rider to manage.

 

I'm curious enough about it to make something to check it out with anyway :) in the good old days you fitted a vacuum gauge to the inlet manifold, when the higher vacuum meant the lowest air flow into the engine, equating to the least fuel being metered out by the carbs. It would still work with the TDM except for the fact that a single intake cycle per throttle body means there isn't a constant measurable vacuum.


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#24 Favs

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 09:52 am

 

 

Cars ? What are dey ?  ;)

In truth my car has such trickery too, and that's partly what gave me the idea. Petrol engines are most efficient at 100% load, and then at the rpms when when the engine is producing the most torque it is at it's most practical efficiency (at about 5000rpm for the 9er). But at lower loads, 30% for example, the most efficient rpm isn't necessarily still at 5000. The higher the rpm the more intake cycles there are, which means more fuel injection cycles, and those injection cycles will meter less fuel than if you choose a gear which requires 3500, which needs a little more throttle opening, but has 30% fewer intake cycles.

 

 

(Diesel peak efficiency is at about 65% load, which explains why my dashboard indications have me changing up gear even when my foot is flat to the floor !)

 

 

Although the manufacturers select gear ratios to give the best riding experience based on the engine's torque curve, a small nod is given to efficiency, but I think generally speaking 'riding efficiently' is a situation left for the rider to manage.

 

I'm curious enough about it to make something to check it out with anyway :) in the good old days you fitted a vacuum gauge to the inlet manifold, when the higher vacuum meant the lowest air flow into the engine, equating to the least fuel being metered out by the carbs. It would still work with the TDM except for the fact that a single intake cycle per throttle body means there isn't a constant measurable vacuum.

 

 

In my teens that meant getting there without being P2 or worse :lol:

Grown up (ever so slightly) since then ;)


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#25 Bjørge

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 06:22 am

I'm curious enough about it to make something to check it out with anyway :) in the good old days you fitted a vacuum gauge to the inlet manifold, when the higher vacuum meant the lowest air flow into the engine, equating to the least fuel being metered out by the carbs. It would still work with the TDM except for the fact that a single intake cycle per throttle body means there isn't a constant measurable vacuum.

 

You don't need a gauge that measures a combination of throttle and rpms, you know (and feel) that already  :lol:

 

BTW, Honda NC has a fuel consumption gauge,  both instantaneous and average.


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#26 fixitsan

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 07:18 am

Wondering if this unit would work with the DRL's i've yet to fit, as they have a "control box" inline...
 
I really like the whole setup you've put together here!!!


They might not like the switching input voltage, but bypassing the internal control circuit might not be too difficult either

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#27 fixitsan

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 07:32 am

You don't need a gauge that measures a combination of throttle and rpms, you know (and feel) that already  :lol:
 
BTW, Honda NC has a fuel consumption gauge,  both instantaneous and average.



So....if it isn't needed, why have Honda made it ?   :pimp:

I'll be honest i dont particularly care too much about consumption, except for the odd time when I really have to !


Edited by fixitsan, 09 November 2017 - 07:50 am.

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#28 Bjørge

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 08:02 am

 

So....if it isn't needed, why have Honda made it ?   :pimp:

 

I was referring to the vacuum gauge that we remember from 80's cars. They're not very informative, as value is a direct function of throttle/rpm.
Instantaneous consumption in l/100kms or similar is a little more interesting, but doesn't really tell much unless you know wind and inclination.


Edited by Bjørge, 09 November 2017 - 08:04 am.

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#29 fixitsan

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 09:07 am

 

I was referring to the vacuum gauge that we remember from 80's cars. They're not very informative, as value is a direct function of throttle/rpm.
Instantaneous consumption in l/100kms or similar is a little more interesting, but doesn't really tell much unless you know wind and inclination.

 

 Yes i think instantaneous consumption over short periods can be misleading, long term averages work much better

 

Without  knowing the current rate of consumption t isn't easy to know which is the best gear choice at lower loads, such as when cruising at a steady speed..... is it 5000rpm in 4th gear with 18% throttle, or is it at 4200rpm in 5th gear with 23% throttle (example figures only !) At sub 5000 rpm (or rpms below peak torque speed) you need more throttle to maintain lower rpms than if you use a lower gear, in order to maintain the same road speed.


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#30 Favs

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 09:15 am

Which in turn means (maybe) being in the right gear at the right time (just try to be in the right place). ;)


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#31 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 11:00 am

Long term readings of average consumption are achieved when you fill yer tank and look at the trip meter. :)  I tend to use my bike as I want to use it so having a constant reading of my consumption wouldn't really be of any use. Also, getting hung up on economy could lead to serious issues like reduction of cake intake and the wearing of lycra for the streamlined effect.  :P

 

Just enjoy the bike, fill it up and repeat. 


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#32 dmmsta

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 12:46 pm

They might not like the switching input voltage, but bypassing the internal control circuit might not be too difficult either

This is what I was thinking...

The blurb says that you wire the control unit to the battery and it "knows" when the engine is running, and powers the DRLs
I can't imagine that they are stepping the voltage to the DRLs in either direction for nominal power usage...its just a magic box to make it easier for the less "fettle-able" in the auto community.

I'll have to dig the DRLs out when I get home, and check to see what goes on - I'd love to be a "tester" (happy to cover costs of proto unit of course).


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#33 fixitsan

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 04:24 pm

Which in turn means (maybe) being in the right gear at the right time (just try to be in the right place). ;)

 

The last time I was in the right gear at the right time I was probably wearing a suit at my wedding !


This is what I was thinking...

The blurb says that you wire the control unit to the battery and it "knows" when the engine is running, and powers the DRLs
I can't imagine that they are stepping the voltage to the DRLs in either direction for nominal power usage...its just a magic box to make it easier for the less "fettle-able" in the auto community.

I'll have to dig the DRLs out when I get home, and check to see what goes on - I'd love to be a "tester" (happy to cover costs of proto unit of course).

 

Sure mate, watch this space, as they say. I started soldering up a board lastnight.

 

I've also done gone gotten wan o tham ther 3d printers (A secondhand one needing a bit of work bit should print a few custom cases for me.), It should arive within the week.

 

The problem with prototypes is making them so you can easily remove the board or the chip for easy reprogramming and further testing, while still being watertight and usable, but I think   I've got it nearly sorted out,

 

 

Those DRLs of yours sound like they'll be confused to heck if they get a switching input voltage, but if the control unit is separate to the lights you can probably just cut it out


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#34 Rallyist

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 04:26 pm

 

The last time I was in the right gear at the right time I was probably wearing a suit at my wedding !

 

Must have been a black one with a tie to match :rotflmmfao:


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#35 fixitsan

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Posted 09 November 2017 - 04:50 pm

 

Must have been a black one with a tie to match :rotflmmfao:

 

 

It's odd how we wear the same things at weddings as we do at funerals....hmmmmm


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#36 dmmsta

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:14 pm

I had a thought about the LDR controlled dimming...

 

Are you programming a delay on the LDR signal, to avoid rapid on/off dimming when traveling in towns etc.  A lot of my commute is town/urban, with street lighting, as well as motorway with simialr lighting.

 

I note that the new cars have a delay before they switch from DRL to main lights.  When you see them in the early evening, I see them coming into covered area's (tunnel / tree cover) and the lights take a while to switch over..the same the other way into lighter areas.

 

Is this something you've already catered for, or could do??


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#37 fixitsan

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:59 pm

I had a thought about the LDR controlled dimming...

 

Are you programming a delay on the LDR signal, to avoid rapid on/off dimming when traveling in towns etc.  A lot of my commute is town/urban, with street lighting, as well as motorway with simialr lighting.

 

I note that the new cars have a delay before they switch from DRL to main lights.  When you see them in the early evening, I see them coming into covered area's (tunnel / tree cover) and the lights take a while to switch over..the same the other way into lighter areas.

 

Is this something you've already catered for, or could do??

 

Good shout,  it was a concern for me too, an upwards pointing LDR would be triggered by streetlights, I use a simple 'complementary filter' which requires several consecutive readings to have a value which is more (or less) than the recent average value, the delay becomes a byproduct of this type of filtering. It's benefit is that it doesn't return to the opposite state immediately either, you get reliable switching both ways.

 

Been a bit busy recently but the board is almost assembled and ready to wire in. I was going to work on it this evening but as a surprise my wife got me tickets to see Blondie in Glasgow. Debbie Harry at 72 yrs old still rocks it with sass !

 

Back to the lights.....the cheapo 3D printer arrived and I managed to fine tune the settings to get some models printed with more than acceptable quality output.  I suspect there's going to be a few iterations along the way ....They call it 'agile development' .... I call it 'break it till it's fixed'  ;)


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#38 dmmsta

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 11:51 am

 

Good shout,  it was a concern for me too, an upwards pointing LDR would be triggered by streetlights, I use a simple 'complementary filter' which requires several consecutive readings to have a value which is more (or less) than the recent average value, the delay becomes a byproduct of this type of filtering. It's benefit is that it doesn't return to the opposite state immediately either, you get reliable switching both ways.

 

Been a bit busy recently but the board is almost assembled and ready to wire in. I was going to work on it this evening but as a surprise my wife got me tickets to see Blondie in Glasgow. Debbie Harry at 72 yrs old still rocks it with sass !

 

Back to the lights.....the cheapo 3D printer arrived and I managed to fine tune the settings to get some models printed with more than acceptable quality output.  I suspect there's going to be a few iterations along the way ....They call it 'agile development' .... I call it 'break it till it's fixed'  ;)

 

Nice - I'd guessed you'd already considered it ;)

 

Makes sense to do it that way...as you say means the switch in either direction has a qualification prior to action.


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#39 dmmsta

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:25 pm

Me again...

 

Is the design specificly for LED DRL's.

Guy at work was reading over my shoulder and was interested, but his 800 Tiger can normal lamps (look like H3)...


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Givi Top Box
Renthal 758's
Grip Puppies
MRA Bubble
Dip & Hi HIDs

To-Do:
LED DRLs
Loobman
Powercoat Wheels
Hand Guards

-----
MY04 TDM 900 Blue over Silver Parts Bin
MY02 TDM 900 Yellow over Black RIP
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#40 fixitsan

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:53 pm

Me again...

 

Is the design specificly for LED DRL's.

Guy at work was reading over my shoulder and was interested, but his 800 Tiger can normal lamps (look like H3)...

 

The output switches I'm using are rated for 3A constant and 5A pulsed, so they could probably drive 55W bulbs at a push.

The issues with them is that the glimmering effect won't be visible, it operates mostly at about 16Hz and tungsten lamps react too slowly.

 

However, the output switch rating can be changed for more powerful ones, and if the glimmering effect is not the most important feature required then in theory (until i test it for real), the other features would probably work, but I might need to make a special version just to take into account the slower response of filament bulbs compared to LEDs


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