82 replies to this topic

[Coxylaad]

i find that mental. why limit the power of the bike that has 80bhp max??

that are sports bikes kicking about with well over twice that horse power, it just doesn't make any sense. How much is it supposed to be limited? I have never noticed the surge in power when I hook 5th and limters are removed.

 

I certainly don't want to lose my speedo, 

[Coxylaad]

Be fun to see how his stacks up against old Blue.

@Coxy

Thats what i was thinking 

 

Funny thing isn't it. you show way more commitment and confidence on the TRX than you ever did on the Blade.

When I got off the twin onto the four it took a while to get used to the lack of engine braking too. With the twin I could keep the revs at 5-7k and accelerate hard through the corner and if it starts to get away you can just ease off the gas and let the engine slow you down (assuming a good set up at the front). With the four you have to get it right or be confident enough in your set up and tyres to be able to pull it down mid corner or just tickle the rear brake to pull it back.

We'll have to meet up again and you can try the Faz now I have the race forks and shock set up properly.

Its a sad fact that I am lot braver with 100bhp less at the back wheel 

[fixitsan]

i find that mental. why limit the power of the bike that has 80bhp max??

that are sports bikes kicking about with well over twice that horse power, it just doesn't make any sense. How much is it supposed to be limited? I have never noticed the surge in power when I hook 5th and limters are removed.

 

I certainly don't want to lose my speedo, 

 

The speedo loss is for the 9'er only

 

It's more that the torque is limited.  It saves the gearbox, keeps the front end down, makes it easy for newbies to ride in the wet (more forgiving), probably helps it meet 'in town' noise limits and all that jazz

 

In fifth gear you don't notice an improvement because the gearing is so long that you need all the torque available.just to get reasonable performance, not many could wheelie  an 850 in fifth gear from a normal rolling start.

 

The 850 is limited, when I removed the wires from the neutral switch on my mk2 there was an improvement, and when i advanced the timing +4 degrees there was a more noticeable improvement. Most bikes have a similar limiting scheme.

 

I helped a friend with his SV650, there's a lot of talk and opinion, eg https://forums.sv650.org/showthread.php?t=164015 These mods are called 'TRE' , timing retard eliminator mods, here's one for the GSXR http://gsxrzone.com/tre.html   A bit of chat about a TRE for a Yamaha R6 http://www.r6-forum....liminators.html

 

 

The TRE on the mk2 helped with the feel going on and off the throttle, it didn't feel particularly faster though...top speed is still in the unchanged higher gears

[Nog]

i find that mental. why limit the power of the bike that has 80bhp max??

that are sports bikes kicking about with well over twice that horse power, it just doesn't make any sense. 

 

As Fixitsan says, it's a torque limit.

 

HP is simply torque x revs, so a bike like a 600 sports bike has higher HP figures due to revving higher, even though on the road the TDM will outperform it easily (at normal road speeds).  Also their components will be built for higher tolerances and can withstand the added stresses of the higher power.

 

A TDM develops peaks torque at relatively low RPM (compared to a 4 cylinder), so the BHP figures are never going to look good on paper.  Compare torque curves with other bikes in the low rev range and the TDM actually isn't a bad performer.

 

My FZ1 is nearly 150BHP, but the TDM will punch off the line a lot quicker and is more durable on the road, whereas the FZ1 needs to get the revs up before it goes ballistic.  A very different bike and so both have their different characters.

 

Having thought more about it over the weekend I'm not sure about this ECU re-map and think i'll give it a pass.

 

Mr. Yamaha knows a lot about bike engines, and any power limits etc are there for a reason.  As we know the TDM engine is good for 100k+ miles easily and there's a good reason why it does this.  I know a lot of bike fueling is to be compliant with emissions etc, but it's also to keep the engine within safe limits for the components used - this was my issue with upping the redline, which is effectively removing a safe limit that is designed to prevent too much stress on the valves/pistons/conrods/bearings etc for their tolerances and masses.  I'm sure this Samio's lot have done their homework on the fueling, but have they considered the longevity of the components?  They don't care about your engine lasting for any decent mileage, so pushing for maximum power gains can easily be done without worrying about anything else.

 

Mine is around 80k miles at the moment, so I really don't want to be adding more torque when it already manages to slip brand new clutch plates in first gear with the PC3 map as it is (get the good old TDM clutch squeak).  Adding anymore power is simply going to slip the clutch more and add heavier engine wear.

 

Each to their own, but I think I'll save some money and some engine wear.

[Coxylaad]

i am pretty confident that removing any TRE rules will have zero affect on the reliability of the engines.  We are not talking about high performance motors here, yet they share a lot of common parts with engines of much higher power output. 

 

I can only assume the limitations are put in place because of the nanny state. 

 

both of mine is a 900's so I will lose the speedo which is no good to me. I would still like confirmation on how it does it in its logic, as changing the gearing of the bike will potentially muck everything up. 

[Nog]

i am pretty confident that removing any TRE rules will have zero affect on the reliability of the engines.  We are not talking about high performance motors here

 

I guess that's where I'm coming from.  It's not meant to be a massively powerful engine, and the character suits it, so I'm happy with it as is than trying to squeeze every ounce of power out of it for the (lets be honest) little gains it will give.

 

But I have the FZ1 for the high BHP thrills, so maybe I just prefer the TDM to be how it is as a balance to that bike.

[fixitsan]

Looks like we'll be meeting on Tuesday night from 7.30 onwards, at Annesley House Hotel, Norwich. If anyone wants to come along we'll see you there, Please PM me if you need any more info.
Chris

Edited by fixitsan, 26 June 2017 - 11:55 am.

[Coxylaad]

I wish I lived closer. Would be interesting to see.

 

for my track bike I certainly don't want any torque limiting restrictions, and every tiny amount of power helps!

 

i wouldn't worry about wear on these engines - My trx900 has spent 4 years on track and its had its head kicked in, clutchless upshifting all the time. its never ever missed a beat. the tdm900 I now own has 96000 miles on it, and celticbiker will testify to it being used 'with spirit', and the engine is feels really fit and shows none of its mileage. 

 

there are a load of parts common with the R1, hell the head is pretty much half an R1 head!

 

Service them right and they will go for ever

[fixitsan]

Coxy I live in Edinburgh. ...a trip to the north east represents a good run out , or meet you somewhere in between if you like ?


I'm in Germany next week but after that I'll be a lot less busy

[Nog]

i wouldn't worry about wear on these engines - My trx900 has spent 4 years on track and its had its head kicked in, clutchless upshifting all the time. its never ever missed a beat. the tdm900 I now own has 96000 miles on it, and celticbiker will testify to it being used 'with spirit', and the engine is feels really fit and shows none of its mileage. 

 

 

That's good to hear, maybe I'll consider it in the future then

[Coxylaad]

Coxy I live in Edinburgh. ...a trip to the north east represents a good run out , or meet you somewhere in between if you like ?


I'm in Germany next week but after that I'll be a lot less busy

swing back my way on your way home from Norwich if you want!

[fixitsan]

swing back my way on your way home from Norwich if you want!

would have done it but I've flown down direct this week....I'll give you a shout after next week

[Coxylaad]

Well I sampled the remapped ecu today. I have to say I am impressed! 

 

I wouldnt have believed it but the bike is definitely harder edged in the lower gears, which is good, but even better was the way the engine behaves. the engine is much smoother, especially going from a closed to and open throttle. 

 

my tuned engine really seemed to like it, so much so I will probably being investing in one at some point.

 

I was very impressed how much smoother it made the engine, notably less vibration. 

[JBX]

After some more intensive tests yesterday, I found that removing the speed sensor connection to the ECU will give error #42 on the dash - and MIL light-up. It just happens after a while, without any special action involved.

 

I also found that no speed sensor gives a noticeable better traction on lower gears, mainly 2-3-4-5.

 

While I was at it, I measured the fuel cut-off rpm when closing throttle to be at 2000RPM - it means when TPS is at min value and engine rpm above 2K the fuel injection is cut and below 2K the fuel injection gives idling mixture. On my car it is 1200RPM.

 

In case the idling is too low, the 2000RPM threshold is very noticeable. That why I prefer to have the idling at around 1400RPM, this is a better value when riding on mountains roads where engine braking is more frequent.

 

Samios remapping looks interesting, but I'd like to know the exact change in fuel consumption and (mainly) engine wear.

An interesting solution could be to have two ECU, one standard and another modded, sharing the same sensor inputs and then choosing with a switch on the handlebar which ECU is in charge of the injection/ignition.

[fixitsan]

After some more intensive tests yesterday, I found that removing the speed sensor connection to the ECU will give error #42 on the dash - and MIL light-up. It just happens after a while, without any special action involved.
 
I also found that no speed sensor gives a noticeable better traction on lower gears, mainly 2-3-4-5.
 
While I was at it, I measured the fuel cut-off rpm when closing throttle to be at 2000RPM - it means when TPS is at min value and engine rpm above 2K the fuel injection is cut and below 2K the fuel injection gives idling mixture. On my car it is 1200RPM.
 
In case the idling is too low, the 2000RPM threshold is very noticeable. That why I prefer to have the idling at around 1400RPM, this is a better value when riding on mountains roads where engine braking is more frequent.
 
Samios remapping looks interesting, but I'd like to know the exact change in fuel consumption and (mainly) engine wear.
An interesting solution could be to have two ECU, one standard and another modded, sharing the same sensor inputs and then choosing with a switch on the handlebar which ECU is in charge of the injection/ignition.

I also thought about a switchover.....perhaps wire both ecu's in parallel but with changeover relays for the ignition coils and injectors (to avoid the boot sequence if all wires were switched)


I'll write a message to Samios when I get a moment to attempt to get more specific details

[fixitsan]

thinking about it some more, where ecu sensor inputs are controlled via a voltage divider to the a/d input using 2 Ecu's in parallel would probably result in false readings. I don't think there's much mileage in that...

[Bjørge]

thinking about it some more, where ecu sensor inputs are controlled via a voltage divider to the a/d input using 2 Ecu's in parallel would probably result in false readings. I don't think there's much mileage in that...

 

Would probably be better with a manual multipole switch instead of a relay to avoid this ?

[Catteeclan]

Well I sampled the remapped ecu today. I have to say I am impressed! 

 

I wouldnt have believed it but the bike is definitely harder edged in the lower gears, which is good, but even better was the way the engine behaves. the engine is much smoother, especially going from a closed to and open throttle. 

 

my tuned engine really seemed to like it, so much so I will probably being investing in one at some point.

 

I was very impressed how much smoother it made the engine, notably less vibration. 

 

Think I agree with all that although I still had some snatch in the low end. I rode around the Norwich inner ring road in the rain so didn't get to rag the hell out of it. Could hear the harder edge of the timing through my open air box, def more power available. Thanks for your time Chris.

Also rode Trevini's standard bike which is prob the least snatchy TDM I've been on and I've had 3 of my own.
 

[fixitsan]

Would probably be better with a manual multipole switch instead of a relay to avoid this ?

no I think the voltage dividers are inside the ecu, there is no way to bypass them.

[fixitsan]

Think I agree with all that although I still had some snatch in the low end. I rode around the Norwich inner ring road in the rain so didn't get to rag the hell out of it. Could hear the harder edge of the timing through my open air box, def more power available. Thanks for your time Chris.

Also rode Trevini's standard bike which is prob the least snatchy TDM I've been on and I've had 3 of my own.

Happy days Dave....yes it was a shame about the weather. It was good to meet you chaps and put some faces to names. Great music too !