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17" Front Wheel On The Abs Model


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#21 fixitsan

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 08:19 pm

Sorry, I missed all these messages looks like I forgot to turn notifications on again. Many thanks all for chiming in 

 

The result for all those interested and those with ABS models wondering if the same is possible:

 

1. I bought the axle in the link (for those from the future it was a TDM 900 front wheel axle, listed for the ABS model but actually from a non-ABS). The difference between the two is not the axle but the spacers (non-ABS model has two). On the ABS model, the hub insert (which sits against the wheel rather than being fixed) acts as a spacer. 

2. I also preempted I may have some trouble with the bike's electrical systems so I bought some new braided racing set-up brake lines to bypass the ABS pump (standard lines feed to the ABS pump on their way to the wheel). I don't know if this is necessary, but makes the bike look a bit blingier anyway and I'm hoping to dig out the ABS pump at some point and sell it.

3.  The ABS warning light and engine warning light are now illuminated. I will find a fix for this at some point and update this thread as and when, but having just passed MOT I'm not fussed by it for now. 

4. The speedo no longer works (frozen at zero). This was something I thought was a possibility but had hoped I wouldn't have to deal with. The TDM has its speed sensor on the output shaft on the front sprocket. I think this may well only be in use for non-abs models only. I think the ABS models will take speed from the ABS sensor on the front wheel. I think I'll look into fixing this by purchasing a used speed sensor off ebay and seeing if it is a straight wire in jobby. This is only to keep my mileage updating so I can easily update my fuel economy on fuelly. For those of you with pristine bikes that are low mileage and still worth something I would recommend holding off for a solution on this one before attempting. For me, I don't really care beyond fuel economy. I ride the same number of miles give or take per month so I do my servicing by time intervals than miles, and it won't be worth anything by the time I've killed it - which is the harsh pragmatic truth of my relationship of convenience with this terrific bike.

5. I may not bother with the speedo though as I'm looking for an excuse to install a Garmin Zumo

 

Given the number of you that will have just read that: two warning lights and no speedo, and think they don't want to ruin their bike or chase gremlins to try and fix it - I think it's absolutely worth it. It handled suspiciously well for the bike I thought it would be when I bought it. But now, now it's something else. I only got to play on a few roundabouts but this thing will really get about on the twisties now. 

 

Felt a little more unstable filtering through traffic on the A2 (national speed limit dual carriageway and 50mph average speed zone) but that's to be expected given reduced gyroscopic effect. White lines seemed to affect it more when splitting in terms of unsettling the bike - I think that's more to do with it being 1/2" lower at the front than momentum of wheel. Nothing different from a Non-ABS model in those regards

 

 

How many castellations, or pulse nibs are there on the original front wheel, compared to the rear wheel ? If they're the same then the missing front signal can probably by replaced with a duplicate of the rear sensor output (suitably isolated)


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#22 jpor

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 08:37 pm

I won't lie to you I don't really know how that would even work - on the face of it I don't think it would as the wheels were different sizes to start with so it won't just be a case of a superposition of the two signals unless the calculation from period of rotation to speed is made at the wheel and I see that as being unlikely - the ECU probably does all the computation. That is coming from someone who knows precisely nothing about how signals are sent and processed by a motorbike so idk, but if I were designing it that is how it would work :)

 

Given that I think the ECU does all the signal processing here, I think an option now is to find a used 9er ECU from a nonABS model. These must surely be different? That way, the warning light for ABS should go out as it won't be expecting it, and I guess I can wire in an output shaft speedo sensor. I can also get the ECU remapped by those affable chaps in Greece

 

If the ECUs are the same, it may just be a job of blanking the correct pin for the ABS and job jobbed (yeah I know, dream on)



#23 steve27bha

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 09:38 pm

You are trying something I had considered and decided against precisely because of the ABS. I would not be prepared to eliminate the ABS, it being one of the reasons I got a TDM.

 

Comments:- (ignore if I am telling you summat you already know/understand)

1. If the ECUs are different they will have different part nos.. Check a parts fiche. eg @ Fowlers.

2. I suspect the wiring loom is different - there is one indicator repeater lamp on the ABS model, two on the other, an ABS light taking up the difference. Again, check loom part nos.. Certainly the wiring diagrams are different, but I have not worked out how they differ, nor do I plan to other than report that there are 73 items listed on the plain bike, 82 on the ABS!

3. AFAIK the sensors in the wheel hubs merely sense the individual "bumps" inside the wheel casting and send a spike voltage for each one that passes. The ECU counts the spikes against time and thereby calculates "speed". The Yamaha Shop Manual has a large section on the working of the ABS starting at page 1-7 and in there you should find how it decides to take action.

 

If you manage to fix it as you want please report back on what you did, I'm sure we will all find it interesting. Good luck.


TDM900A 2008/09 in use, with     gallery_179098_391_770.jpg sml_gallery_179098_391_1145.jpg  gallery_179098_391_1206.jpg gallery_179098_391_253.jpg gallery_179098_391_82.jpg gallery_179098_391_725.gif gallery_179098_391_797.jpg gallery_179098_391_1396.jpg gallery_179098_391_501.jpg gallery_179098_391_316.jpg  gallery_179098_391_1768.jpg gallery_179098_391_106.jpggallery_179098_391_2170.jpg gallery_179098_391_1373.jpg

 

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#24 jpor

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Posted 21 March 2019 - 09:53 pm

I will work out how to fix this if it's within what any sane person would reasonably attempt! When that happens, I will do a very detailed write up. This forum's back pages have been really helpful and if this can be of use to anyone in the future I'll make sure it is

 

Of course, if I'd properly done my research on this bike before plowing in, I'd have just bought the non-abs. Non abs models being cheaper, it would make sense for anyone else looking to do the same to chop their bike in for the standard, all other things being equal!

 

I'll probably do some reading on this over the weekend and see what's what



#25 fixitsan

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 08:35 am

How many castellations/bumps are there on the ABS rotors ? If they're the same then it ought to be easy enough to mirror the signal from the rear wheel ABS sensor, feed it to the front sensor connector to fool the ABS ECU that both wheels are turning, and therefore extinguish the warning lights


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#26 jpor

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 09:47 am

Ah right yes I understand my mistake here, provided the diameter of the hubs are the same, and the number of castellations there are is the same, then the speed measured is the same

 

Now how do you go about mirroring the signal?



#27 fixitsan

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 10:18 am

Ah right yes I understand my mistake here, provided the diameter of the hubs are the same, and the number of castellations there are is the same, then the speed measured is the same

 

Now how do you go about mirroring the signal?

 

 

And this is where I should have said, I don't know. It's only because I don't have an ABS model though.

 

But in principle at least, I would put an oscilloscope on the working sensor and look at it's output signal, for both voltage and polarity. I would use an optoisolator (so there is no electrical interaction) and switch a similar voltage in a similar way on the 'missing' line. If the ABS sensors are 'hall effect' then likely they'll be running at 5V and produce a switching output , with straight edges, between 0V and 5V.

 

This all depends on your confidence level with electronics though, and if you're happy with things the way they are then why change ? It was just an idea which struck me, if it was my bike I would probably go down that route.


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#28 jpor

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 11:07 am

Ouch, certainly sounds a bit trickier than removing the bulbs

 

Hall Effect, yes rings a bell



#29 steve27bha

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 01:14 am

Ah right yes I understand my mistake here, provided the diameter of the hubs are the same, and the number of castellations there are is the same, then the speed measured is the same

Errr - no.

The standard wheels are different diameters, plus the tyre sections are different so the rolling diameter / tyre circumferences will be different, so the spikes per second would be different. And I would not be surprised if the hub diameters are different too.

 

However, the system has to cope with tyres that wear and change size so the actual circumference cannot be critical to the operation. Perhaps the system works on the change in "speed" rather than the absolute value, and / or the variation in the ratio between the two wheels.

 

Dunno. And since I'm not mucking about I won't be checking the Shop Manual to see if it has answers!


TDM900A 2008/09 in use, with     gallery_179098_391_770.jpg sml_gallery_179098_391_1145.jpg  gallery_179098_391_1206.jpg gallery_179098_391_253.jpg gallery_179098_391_82.jpg gallery_179098_391_725.gif gallery_179098_391_797.jpg gallery_179098_391_1396.jpg gallery_179098_391_501.jpg gallery_179098_391_316.jpg  gallery_179098_391_1768.jpg gallery_179098_391_106.jpggallery_179098_391_2170.jpg gallery_179098_391_1373.jpg

 

CBX750FE in reserve; Cagiva N90 125 now rebuilt & in use.


#30 fixitsan

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 08:28 pm

Errr - no.

The standard wheels are different diameters, plus the tyre sections are different so the rolling diameter / tyre circumferences will be different, so the spikes per second would be different. And I would not be surprised if the hub diameters are different too.

 

However, the system has to cope with tyres that wear and change size so the actual circumference cannot be critical to the operation. Perhaps the system works on the change in "speed" rather than the absolute value, and / or the variation in the ratio between the two wheels.

 

Dunno. And since I'm not mucking about I won't be checking the Shop Manual to see if it has answers!

 

 

I think the basic operation of simple ABS systems look for missing pulses from the wheel encoders to suggest under rotation of a locked wheel.


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#31 jpor

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Posted 07 August 2019 - 09:18 am

Tried a 2003 Non-ABS ECU in my 57MY ABS 9er. The ECU was plug straight in, no fitment issues. Turn key to on and odometer information and neutral light displayed as would expect from the ON position normally. There was no engine management light and no error code 42. 

 

The fuel pump could not be heard priming, and unsurprisingly the bike didn't start.

 

I expected this outcome, and I imagine if I sent the ecu off to be programmed to my key it could well start. This would get rid of the warning lights at least and make it pass an MOT without bodgery. A hard wired Garmin could be used as a speedo. 

 

As it is, I'll probably just take the engine management light bulb out and some black electrical tape over where the error codes are displayed. Path of least resistance and all. 


Edited by jpor, 07 August 2019 - 09:19 am.



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