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#1 itchyfeet2

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 05:27 pm

Hi all,

          i bought an ebay "bargain" of a '92 3vd.  I bought it knowing it was not running. The guy said it was running fine in May but for the last 5 months had sat outside under a cover. When it came to selling it he could not get it to fire up.

 

I have found it to have no spark,

Ive changed the plugs, caps and coil.

New battery. Checked the main fuse.

I believe I have proved clutch switch, side stand switch, engine cut out switch. Im assuming the fact the neutral light comes on means that the ignition switch is good? No idea if that could cause no spark.

 

I've tried my spare CDI unit and even tried a replacement pick up coil/magneto.

 

Can anyone think of the things I have missed.

 

 

 

ta.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#2 Hombre

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 05:55 pm

Are you getting 12V at the coil input?  The 3VD fires both plugs simultaneously so no power in means no spark at either, even if the trigger signal in is working.


Edited by Hombre, 06 November 2020 - 06:01 pm.

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#3 fixitsan

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 06:26 pm

Are you getting 12V at the coil input?  The 3VD fires both plugs simultaneously so no power in means no spark at either, even if the trigger signal in is working.

+1 check the basics and eliminate them one by one


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#4 itchyfeet2

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 06:38 pm

If that is tested with multi metre between poss on the battery and input side of coil then no, either ignition on or off or cranking multi meter reads no more than 2>3 volts. 

 

Unsure though if thats how to test.



#5 Hombre

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 06:47 pm

No, 12V between 12V feed and negative/ground.  You have changed the coil so the chances of that being bad are reduced although you don't say if it was new or 2nd hand.


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#6 itchyfeet2

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 07:09 pm

The test as you described shows 12 volts. Yes it was a new coil, aftermarket but new.

 

ta



#7 fixitsan

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 07:17 pm

No, 12V between 12V feed and negative/ground.  You have changed the coil so the chances of that being bad are reduced although you don't say if it was new or 2nd hand.

And also, when checking voltages at connectors, use the needle probe attachment and test the cable end , rather than the connector terminal itself, because it's possible to have corrosion at the wire crimps, as well as the 'spade' side of the terminal.

 

The test as you described shows 12 volts. Yes it was a new coil, aftermarket but new.

 

ta

 

And what's the voltage on the other terminal of the coil when 12V is on the input side ? (against ground again) If you have zero volts it would mean the coil is U/S, useful just to eliminate it from the list of suspects.  And if it's less than the input voltage of 12V by any significant amount, then it could be faulty


Edited by fixitsan, 06 November 2020 - 07:59 pm.

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#8 itchyfeet2

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 08:22 pm

Hi,

when 12v is on the input side, the other terminal reads exactly the same. 12.4 volts.



#9 Hombre

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Posted 06 November 2020 - 09:46 pm

OK, your ignition switch is functioning.  As you have replaced several units and checked interlock switches, I suggest you check for corrosion at connectors and/or damaged wiring as next step.  Do you have a wiring diagram?  The colour codes on that help keep track of what you have checked.


Edited by Hombre, 06 November 2020 - 09:49 pm.

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#10 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 12:34 pm

Also worth checking the wires to the coil haven't been swapped round.  The spark isn't always easy to see so a dark environment will help there.


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#11 fixitsan

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 02:41 pm

Hi,

when 12v is on the input side, the other terminal reads exactly the same. 12.4 volts.

 That's 12v proven, from the battery, through the fuses on the red/white wire to the coil.

 

The coil seems intact (12V on the switched side), the orange wire from the coil goes only to the ignitor unit (also orange), with a grey wire tapped off it for the tacho/rpm counter.

 

At the ignitor there's a pair of wires, coloured white/red and white/green which go to the pickup coil for the ignition. A voltmeter set to measure a low AC voltage should show a pulse at the ignitor end of those two wires when the engine is being cranked. With no pickup signal the coils won't be switched at all. I think the pickup is inside the flywheel cover.

 

The ignitor  wire blue/yellow is the sidestand switch, if you're able to crank the bike on the starter then that signal must be present

 

The black wire at the ignitor is 0V/earth, should have zero resistance between that wire and the battery negative


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#12 itchyfeet2

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 03:22 pm

Hi Guys,

              thanks all for your continued help.

 

Yes i have a wiring diargram so time to check those earths and conections. The previous owner fitted an electric fuel pump which left the wiring quite tight in that area so will need checking.

 

Thanks for the heads up on the ignitor wiring and pick up, with me changing the pick up coil with a second hand replacement, I thought i had illiminated that but I suppose that could also be faulty.

 

could he cause be simply the coil wires being fitted to the wrong terminals?

 

Ive got a morning tomorrow to have another look before work, so fingers crossed its an easy fix.



#13 dablik

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 03:27 pm

Check the spade connectors to the coil also, hard to see under the rubber boot, mine snapped, they are a flag terminal but i replaced with a normal.


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#14 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 03:43 pm

Hi Guys,

              thanks all for your continued help.

 

Yes i have a wiring diargram so time to check those earths and conections. The previous owner fitted an electric fuel pump which left the wiring quite tight in that area so will need checking.

 

Thanks for the heads up on the ignitor wiring and pick up, with me changing the pick up coil with a second hand replacement, I thought i had illiminated that but I suppose that could also be faulty.

 

could he cause be simply the coil wires being fitted to the wrong terminals?

 

Ive got a morning tomorrow to have another look before work, so fingers crossed its an easy fix.

Yes. :)  One wire is for the voltage, t'other wan is for the pulse.


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#15 fixitsan

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 04:19 pm



could he cause be simply the coil wires being fitted to the wrong terminals?

 

 

 

The way to find out is to measure the resistance between each terminal and ground. If there is no continuity then it shouldn't matter which way around they go. Normally I would say the opposite of this but something in the back of my mind about a diagram of the coil system on the 3VD (maybe on the JBX site) showed the 3VD coil was completely isolated, like a true transformer.


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#16 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 04:32 pm

Ok, well, I had a problem of no spark/wouldn't fire up and swapping the wires over got it started. Might have been pure coincidence, just going off what actually happened really.

 

Rather than messing about with the meter, surely it would be easier and quicker just to swap the wires over ?


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#17 fixitsan

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 04:33 pm

Ok, well, I had a problem of no spark/wouldn't fire up and swapping the wires over got it started. Might have been pure coincidence, just going off what actually happened really.

 

I'm happy to go with that, because a lot of times it does matter and this might be it too. I need to find the diagram, hopefully it wasn't just in my imagination !


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#18 Apache

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Posted 07 November 2020 - 08:30 pm

All of the above plus go to the ignitor unit. One plug should have 12v across black and ignition feed. 12v across Black and Orange with the coil connected. On the other plug you should have continuity on two of the cables through to the trigger connector (Disconnect ignitor unit and trigger to check) . Finally the lilac/ yellow should be negative sidestand up.....hth

#19 Rallyist

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Posted 08 November 2020 - 10:29 am

Ok, well, I had a problem of no spark/wouldn't fire up and swapping the wires over got it started. Might have been pure coincidence, just going off what actually happened really.

 

Rather than messing about with the meter, surely it would be easier and quicker just to swap the wires over ?

This happened to me following a clean up of terminals much head scratching was done.


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#20 fixitsan

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Posted 08 November 2020 - 11:19 am

Just for discussion, in older breaker type systems both windings in the coil formed a stepup transformer. One side of both windings was connected together internally and brought to the negative pole. Negative and positive was written on the cap of the coil to aid with installation.

 

When the charge in a coil collapses it creates a large back-EMF, which creates a high voltage pulse on the grounded side of the high voltage secondary winding. This is not harmful to a points breaker system, because you have two strong metal contacts to ditch the high voltage spike through.

 

In an electronic system the 'low' side of the coil is switched through a type of transistor, which can be damaged if exposed to such high voltages (although some have internal protection), so some electronic ignition systems don't use a 'commoned coil' approach, but instead both the primary (low tension) and secondary (HT) windings are left isolated and do not connect together anywhere. The switching transistor in these circuits doesn't need to ditch the HT back-EMF pulse, only the pulse generated by the collapsing field in the primary (easily shunted through a diode)

 

In this latter case, both coils are floating, just as in a conventional isolated transformer. The primary is switched on and off, and the collapsing field induces a much higher voltage in the isolated secondary.

 

I think this type of circuit suits a limited number of spark arrangements, because the diagram I saw shows that on the 3VD, one spark plug is connected to one side of the secondary, and the other secondary connection goes to the other spark plug, meaning that the secondary circuit consists of a secondary winding, each end connected to a single spark plug cap, and the circuit completes through ground at the spark plugs. This is different to a points based coil system.

 

The quick way to check is to measure the resistance of the secondary winding at the coil. If the coil has commoned windings there would be no resistance between the secondary terminals (assuming a good coil), so measuring between both spark plug lead outputs at the coil should read close to zero Ohms. But if the coil is the type which uses windings which are not commoned together, a resistance check will reveal the resistance of the high turn secondary coil, which will probably be a few Ohms.

 

A confirmation check is to measure the resistance between the high voltage output terminals and each low voltage primary winding input terminals, in a fully isolated (non polarised)  system there will be no continuity between either input terminal and either output terminal.

 

 

Where polarity might matter in the use case of a fully isolated coil,but possibly not enough for the manufacturers to bother to put terminal polarities on the coil's case like they always used to, is that it has been found that with a hot sparkplug a higher voltage is achieved if the spark polarity is negative at the hot centre of the plug relative to the grounded outer case. (some claims state upto a 15% higher voltage). The statements I have read about it were along the lines that it made little difference really, but maybe at higher revs there seemed to be more power. 

 

I cleared out some 3VD parts recently and wish I had kept a coil for testing now !

 

 

EDIT, this is a common circuit for some twin cylinder ignition circuits (this from a 2CV...pah !) showing what is sometimes called a 'double ended coil' , with the exception of the points system, the 3VD wiring diagram I have seen shows the coil used in an identical fashion to how it is used here.......which then leads me to question the truth about a negative pulse being better, because in these systems one plug is always positive and the other is always negative, and in that case the polarity of the primary low voltage side is irrelevant  https://en.wikipedia...llumage_2cv.svg


Edited by fixitsan, 08 November 2020 - 11:28 am.

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