13 replies to this topic

[peloponezian]

Hi Guys,

I could do with some advice please as Ive reached a cross roads I feel with the current set up.

 

Bought a 2012 registered TDM900 non abs las year. I was aware that it had had a few mods done but having looked here I didn't think it was anything that couldn't be fixed.

 

Main issue was the low speed fuelling and snatchiness,  The bike is fitted with a 2 into 1 downpipe set and has an MTC single can on.  The centre stand is still on so everything either custom made to fit or

the system was already suitable from something else.

 

At low speed it was nigh on was unrideable, from various forums I have now done the airbbox  flap mod to de-activate it made no difference, I have removed the K&N filter on the advice of a mechanic,( i.e. more air means even weaker running) and replaced with stock, big improvement,

 

I have chopped the top of the airbox to open it up.  slight improvement,  and I have been through the Co2 range top to to bottom and I cannot get anywhere near consistent smooth low end running?

 

I am at the stage where now

 

I either have the existing set up dyno'd to try and make it work, mucho spondoolie

 

I revert back to 2 - 2 with a matched set of cans and hope ill be able to find a co2 setting that works for that,

 

I revert back to 2 - 2 with standard cans and hope to be able to fix, mucho spondoolie...........

 

or i sell the damned thing off and look for something else.

 

I love the bike absolutely above 5k but you have to be able to get out to somewhere to use up there  it and getting out to that place with the engine jumping out of the frame isn't at all pleasant. As an overrider to that I ride and have done for the last 40 years BMW boxers, i'm used to agricultural!   Ive had three 650 thumpers, I do snatchy!!!   but this has been worse than anything I have ever ridden. Currently its getting to be just about acceptable, but just about isn't doing it.

 

Is the 2 into 1 the fatal flaw?

 

Is it that i can't just get enough AFR with the dash CO2 adjustment but might with a re-map?

 

does it sound it could be electrical perhaps, sound familiar to anyone?

 

 

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

Any suggestions and advice gratefully received and considered

 

Thanks 

Pelo

[spike240]

Hi Pelo.

 

If you find a very recent thread on here called " Just got a 900" . The thread is about the same subject as yours. So have a look there and see if there is anything of interest.

Edited by spike240, 03 August 2018 - 07:06 am.

[fixitsan]

On a standard bike with an O2 sensor in the exhaust, like yours, when at cruise the AFR is automatically corrected by the closed loop feedback provided by the O2 sensor.  When you modify the intake or exhaust the feedback from the sensor causes the ECU to change the AFR to it's target setting. So in theory, regardless of what you do the O2 sensor control loop can cope and make the adjustment's necessary to get the ideal AFR.The ideal AFR at cruise is often quite lean..

 

When running at low speeds with a small throttle opening, the ECU uses a different control method. At very low speeds and throttle openings the CO adjustment is used as the main input to the ECU.

 

When accelerating , the ECU goes into 'open loop' mode and uses a set of tables stored in memory to decide how much fuel to deliver. This is why a Power Commander can come in useful when an exhaust is changed, it may be possible to gain a little bit more power by programming the PC accordingly.

 

It might be that the oxygen sensor has a problem, but it is difficult to check these without special equipment, but if you had one to hand it would be worth swapping it to check for a difference in operation. Usually though a faulty O2 sensor is accompanied by noticeable changes in fuel consumption.

 

The 900 does have a minor issue with slow speed running in traffic. Annoying enough to bother some and it can be ridden around if you ride it in a more lively manner. Perhaps that's what the designers had in mind ?

[Nog]

I like the fact you changed the K&N because it allows more air, but then cut the top off the air box...........to allow more air

 

It really depends on what you mean by snatchy.  These bikes have a bit of an on/off throttle at low speed which seems really bad to someone coming from a smoother bike.  I rode a mates when he got his for the first time with the same comments and I said yeah that's how TDM's are, but it's so subjective that without riding yours it's hard to know if it's 'normal' or a really bad case.  Start with the basics, throttle cable and chain adjustments.

 

Messing with the exhausts can alter the fueling, it depends on how the system was plumbed in - maybe post a picture up.  Others have done a 2 to 1 without issue so I doubt it's a problem, but if they did a bespoke system maybe it isn't very optimal.

 

In terms of the O2 sensor, I have mine disconnected as I use a power commander.  The bike simply goes to a slightly rich default for safety if it can't detect a signal, which runs fine - I had an AFR gauge/sensor in the place of the OEM O2 sensor so I could monitor live what was happening with the fueling.  With the PC mine generally runs from around high to low 13s depending on throttle input.

[TKH]

Hi - where bouts are you? Maybe someone nearby could help with a comparison? That would rule out if it's the usual TDM low revs "issue". As already mentioned, make sure especially the chain is correct as it is quite slack, should be about 50-60mm. I have a dobeck tuner on mine which is a bit like a poor man's PC. Assume everything else is ok? All the pipework into the airbox is in place? Throttle bodies balanced. Azza did a bit of a quick check thing a while back http://www.carpe-tdm...showtopic=25955

 

I take it you didn't get the original exhausts from previous owner.

[peloponezian]

Hi - where bouts are you? Maybe someone nearby could help with a comparison? That would rule out if it's the usual TDM low revs "issue". As already mentioned, make sure especially the chain is correct as it is quite slack, should be about 50-60mm. I have a dobeck tuner on mine which is a bit like a poor man's PC. Assume everything else is ok? All the pipework into the airbox is in place? Throttle bodies balanced. Azza did a bit of a quick check thing a while back http://www.carpe-tdm...showtopic=25955

 

I take it you didn't get the original exhausts from previous owner.

 

 

I like the fact you changed the K&N because it allows more air, but then cut the top off the air box...........to allow more air

 

It really depends on what you mean by snatchy.  These bikes have a bit of an on/off throttle at low speed which seems really bad to someone coming from a smoother bike.  I rode a mates when he got his for the first time with the same comments and I said yeah that's how TDM's are, but it's so subjective that without riding yours it's hard to know if it's 'normal' or a really bad case.  Start with the basics, throttle cable and chain adjustments.

 

Messing with the exhausts can alter the fueling, it depends on how the system was plumbed in - maybe post a picture up.  Others have done a 2 to 1 without issue so I doubt it's a problem, but if they did a bespoke system maybe it isn't very optimal.

 

In terms of the O2 sensor, I have mine disconnected as I use a power commander.  The bike simply goes to a slightly rich default for safety if it can't detect a signal, which runs fine - I had an AFR gauge/sensor in the place of the OEM O2 sensor so I could monitor live what was happening with the fueling.  With the PC mine generally runs from around high to low 13s depending on throttle input.

 

That kind of action has been the story of the whole affair, yes i took out the KN because it was running crap, but in an attempt to cover all the fixes as usually known both on here and JBX i then did the last one which was the Airbox hacking, having previously done the flap de-activation, every thing has been a total contradiction of everything else. Losing the KN did a great deal of good, then the airbox opening did a little more not less. with the kn and just no flap my co2 settings were 84L 89R  after losing KN 34L 39R then after the opening the airbox its runs best at 20L and 25R....  Go Figure because I can't, the downpipes  arent blueing and the silencers are a dark grey colour after a 20 mile run, no matter what I do i can't find an oatmeal colour anywhere. MPG is probably High 60s I'm happily doing 250+ to a tank

 

I would try a PC but cannot find one new or second hand for this model, thanks for the other detail thats very interesting as I am trying to understand the paradox is which is mine, thanks. I was wondering about the O2 sensor but above 5k the bike runs so damned well up to and beyond the redline,

thats why i'm still persevering,

 

thanks again

[peloponezian]

Hi - where bouts are you? Maybe someone nearby could help with a comparison? That would rule out if it's the usual TDM low revs "issue". As already mentioned, make sure especially the chain is correct as it is quite slack, should be about 50-60mm. I have a dobeck tuner on mine which is a bit like a poor man's PC. Assume everything else is ok? All the pipework into the airbox is in place? Throttle bodies balanced. Azza did a bit of a quick check thing a while back http://www.carpe-tdm...showtopic=25955

 

I take it you didn't get the original exhausts from previous owner.

 

 

No original pipes etc... I have arranged to meet a friend of a friend with a TDM9 to swap for an hour or two just to see what we think, just to confirm its not me being to finnecky about it. My mate has ridden both and he says mine is worse noticeably, but he wasn't wringing his hands in woe?

I'll see next week, thanks

[peloponezian]

Hi Pelo.

 

If you find a very recent thread on here called " Just got a 900" . The thread is about the same subject as yours. So have a look there and see if there is anything of interest.

 

Read that but he wasn't on a 2-1 i didn't think , I know the faults are commonplace but most people seem to be able to at get a handle on them? thanks

Hi - where bouts are you? Maybe someone nearby could help with a comparison? That would rule out if it's the usual TDM low revs "issue". As already mentioned, make sure especially the chain is correct as it is quite slack, should be about 50-60mm. I have a dobeck tuner on mine which is a bit like a poor man's PC. Assume everything else is ok? All the pipework into the airbox is in place? Throttle bodies balanced. Azza did a bit of a quick check thing a while back http://www.carpe-tdm...showtopic=25955

 

I take it you didn't get the original exhausts from previous owner.

Great article thanks, not got std pipes etc...

[fixitsan]

 

 

 

That kind of action has been the story of the whole affair, yes i took out the KN because it was running crap, but in an attempt to cover all the fixes as usually known both on here and JBX i then did the last one which was the Airbox hacking, having previously done the flap de-activation, every thing has been a total contradiction of everything else. Losing the KN did a great deal of good, then the airbox opening did a little more not less. with the kn and just no flap my co2 settings were 84L 89R  after losing KN 34L 39R then after the opening the airbox its runs best at 20L and 25R....  Go Figure because I can't, the downpipes  arent blueing and the silencers are a dark grey colour after a 20 mile run, no matter what I do i can't find an oatmeal colour anywhere. MPG is probably High 60s I'm happily doing 250+ to a tank

 

 

I know K&N are well respected, I even have one, but they are terribly bad at resisting dust buildup, and once loaded they restrict flow more than a cheap paper filter.  I found this article, comparing various paper filters to the K&N. It's important to keep it clean, probably in the real world you might consider washing it every few months !  http://nicoclub.com/...oem-filter.html

[richierex]

 

I know K&N are well respected, I even have one, but they are terribly bad at resisting dust buildup, and once loaded they restrict flow more than a cheap paper filter.  I found this article, comparing various paper filters to the K&N. It's important to keep it clean, probably in the real world you might consider washing it every few months !  httpYeah and when they dry out they lw://nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html

Yeah, and when they dry out they let all the crap through. At least a paper filter fails safe, i.e. just starts to block up

[TDM4ever]

Yeah, and when they dry out they let all the crap through. At least a paper filter fails safe, i.e. just starts to block up

 

Just don't put on a K&N if you aren't prepared to maintain it 

 

Properly maintained, it has advantages over a paper filter.

[Nog]

Properly maintained, it has advantages over a paper filter.

 

And also disadvantages, the main ones being less filtration and the need to clean/re-oil:

 

http://nicoclub.com/...oem-filter.html

https://www.scienced...301475-main.pdf

 

I used to use K&N all the time but have to say I've gone back to OEM.  The reason being (as you say) you need to maintain them, and this is a lot more than their stated service intervals as being clogged makes them far worse than OEM in terms of air flow.

 

My thinking is if you need to get in there to mess about cleaning them, it's actually easier to simply pull out the old OEM one and pop a new one in with no need to mess about with cleaning and re-oiling.  Also over the time I usually have a bike, the cost of the OEM filters probably still doesn't actually come close to the cost of a K&N and all the gubbins to clean/oil it, so the argument about saving money as it's the only filter you buy is sort of misleading unless you keep a bike for decades or do incredible mileage on it.

 

K&N is great if you want to mod and gain performance, but after years of seeking extra BHP in many bikes I've come to think most isn't worth it.  Just putting a K&N in on it's own is useless IMO.  You need to do proper mods along with the filter and then have a full remap to tune the engine to the mods to get any benefit.

 

Anyway, that's just my reasons for moving back to OEM, not saying others should

[dandywarhol]

To the best of my knowledge the CO adjustment only affects idle and slightly above - or have I got that wrong?

[fixitsan]

To the best of my knowledge the CO adjustment only affects idle and slightly above - or have I got that wrong?

 

No, you're correct

 

There are differences in the throttle bodies and the injector flow rates, so they run slightly different values. Also inside the airbox one cylinder has a long intake snorkel and the other has a short one. Hence 2 different cylinder values

Edited by fixitsan, 05 September 2018 - 05:57 pm.