18 replies to this topic

[peteb]

Looking for advice. I come from a background of off road bikes, and even the 'road' bikes I've had (XT 600, KTM 950) have all had 21 inch front wheels and 'wide' handlebars. My riding style has thus evolved for those, and I regard them as 'neutral'. I can drop the 950 into a corner on the tar and it behaves 'predictably' for me.

So I'm new to the TDM, and road bikes in general, and I find the handling disconcerting. When I drop it into a corner I feel the handlebars want to 'turn too much' into the corner. I have to noticeably hold the inner bar 'outwards' for it to track through the corner. It is the same left or right, and fast or slow corners. I would describe it as 'oversteering', but I know that this term is used differently for cars.

What am I doing wrong? Is it bike setup (maybe drop the forks through the clamps a bit, or dial in more fork rebound), or is it riding style? I do like to move my weight around on the bike quite a bit, rather than just sit upright through the corner. 

Or is this just the way road bikes - or TDMs in particular - handle, and I must just get used to it?

[MalS7]

Hi Pete,
In my experience the TDM is slow steering and if anything, prone to understeer. I find it a challenge (pig) in the tight stuff but bloody wonderful on the sweepers. A common mod is to drop the forks through the clamps a bit or even fit a 17 inch front wheel, but thats to quicken the steering. You may need to check your setup and, if you can, have someone else take it for a ride that is used to TDMs or sports bikes. Your time on bikes with 21 inch front hoops will definitely have skewed your expectations, but it sounds like there may be a problem.
Cheers
Mal

[peteb]

Thank you for the reply. I may be using the term 'oversteer' incorrectly. If I equate the feeling to my dirt bikes its like the front end wants to 'tuck under' in a corner, although the TDM doesn't feel quite as radical.

I only recently purchased the bike. The previous owner had installed shorter dogbones to raise the rear by about 10mm, and has dropped the forks in the triples until they are flush with the top of the triples, I presume to compensate for the rear being taller. I haven't yet played with fork heights, preload or rebound, although I do know the forks have fresh oil, and the steering bearings are fine. The front tyre is an almost brand new Michelin.  (2TC?)

I'll get used to it I guess, its just right now I find it hard to pick a clean line through corners because I seem to be overcorrecting on the inside handgrip.

[dandywarhol]

Sounds like the front is too low or rear too high. Unless you're vertically challenged then try an original set of dogbones - aside from raising the rear height, they also have an effect on the spring rate wich can make the rear end harsher than it is normally

[steve27bha]

You say :- I have to noticeably hold the inner bar 'outwards' for it to track through the corner.

I take that to mean you have to push forwards on the inner bar to maintain the chosen line. If I am wrong then what follows is not relevant and you should ignore it, apart from the last paragraph before the HTH.

This is termed "countersteering" or "positive steering"  in the UK and is the normal way to initiate a turn - "push left to turn left". Rather than you having to push forwards to prevent the bars turning too far, I suggest you are having to push to maintain the turn.

As MalS7 has said, the TDM tends to want to go straight and needs a positive input to start turning, which is more understeer as far as that term can be applied to a motorcycle.

You might like to try - in a wide open clear space and at your own risk - initiating a turn then taking your hands / pressure off the bars. I think you will find the bike will track straighter rather than turn tighter. This is difficult to do without some form of throttle lock since the throttle will close affecting the balance of the bike. The other way would be to push even harder and see what happens - I expect a tighter turn.

If I am correct then the way to reduce the required push to maintain the turn and give a quicker response to steering input is to raise the forks back up to the standard position above the upper clamp (your "triples") thereby lowering the front. If the rear has only been raised by 10mm this should not affect stability too much.

If the above does not work I suggest you put the bike back to standard at the front and back and see how it performs. Your off-road experience could mean you corner the bike differently to a regular road rider - e.g. leaning the bike more than your body.

HTH

PS You might like to fill the details of where you are in the world - I assume North America.

[fixitsan]

As above sounds pretty normal but do check your tyre pressures, the front is especially sensitive to low pressure.

[peteb]

Thanks guys, will fiddle with the front end and make notes. I am aware of the countersteering principle. It's probably just something I need to get used to.

I'm in Durban, east coast of South Africa. Riding heaven (particularly off road!).

[Pedro]

It took me ages to figure out how to ride the TDM (3VD anyway).  Eventually i worked out that if i ride it like my old Honda Dominator, ie. elbows out and hold it down on a turn, it does handle quite well! It prefers to go in a straight line but will go round a bend if you keep it lent over with lots of counter-steer. The bonus is that the back end is predictable when it slides a bit. All in all a good fun bike to ride as it makes you work for it but rewards you with a smile. All the new stuff nowadays everything is done for you by electronics. Where's the fun in that?

[harvey krumpet]

Interestin.

 

My 2t trailies with 21" fronts are stable through corners but very agile. Light bikes and skinny tyres.

 

The TDM can be a bit "floppy" but that is generally down to my inputs. Leaned over with a closed throttle mine wants to lean more, as you say the bars keep turning, Not sure about the 900 but the 850 has a relatively short wheelbase which exacerbates this. Tyre profile has a pronounced effect, too.

Can't remember what tyre it was but after fitting a new front a few years ago I was nearly riding off the road for the first few corners, the bike was darting in like a hungry cat after a spuggy.

 

Tyre pressures make a noticeable difference, as said. All things considered you may just need to ride it like you mean it, a short transition between brake and throttle. Closed throttle or coasting and TDM gravity comes into play.

 

Do you know Len Jones, PeteB?

[drewpy]

need to try my fz600 with 16" front, that dumps you into the corner, i tend to leave it last min and trust the tyres. funny enough a steeper front stabilises the front as more weight is put on there.

 

my tdm 850 with 17" wheel and hagon rear shock is so easy to tip in and I can forward project the line and exit which I think is what you'll pick up on after riding a bit with the bike.

[PICARD]

It took me ages to figure out how to ride the TDM (3VD anyway).  Eventually i worked out that if i ride it like my old Honda Dominator, ie. elbows out and hold it down on a turn, it does handle quite well! It prefers to go in a straight line but will go round a bend if you keep it lent over with lots of counter-steer. The bonus is that the back end is predictable when it slides a bit. All in all a good fun bike to ride as it makes you work for it but rewards you with a smile. All the new stuff nowadays everything is done for you by electronics. Where's the fun in that?

 yeah my first thought was a technique thing. I'm no expert, but I went to pick up CR 250 something with a mate and couldn't get it to turn, then penny dropped,,,,ride it like you're off road....and bobs your dad's brother! Lean the bike more than the body...almost pushing the bike away from you.....like I said no expert !!!

[LAURENCEAUX]

Adjust your current driving inputs or try going though a turn carrying a little more speed: the bike should then have less "desire" to fall into the turn/"oversteer". Another tip, from my own experience after coming off a true sports bike, is to truly relax onto the TDM, avoiding stiff arms and hips. Good luck.

[Kelpie]

Ive found it to be one the most confidence/inspiring bikes Ive ever ridden. Im obsessive about tyre quality and pressure and also keep the fork oil fresh. My Niner is bog standard (it works, why mess about). Sure, it bounces a bit (less so if the said fork oil is fresh) but its never pulled any fancy tricks on me, unlike my R1. Keep the revs up (I hang around in 3rd and c 5k revs on challenging twisities) and look way ahead, using the vanishing point to your advantage. In 3rd gear, doing 60, deceleration/acceleration is pretty impressive so keep your throttle steady! My advice is to slow it all down till you get it right. When youre more confident on the bike, increase your speed gradually but not to the point where youre uncomfortable. Spend as much as you can afford on tyres and check your pressures before every ride.

Edited by Kelpie, 14 September 2018 - 02:18 pm.

[harvey krumpet]

Ive found it to be one the most confidence/inspiring bikes Ive ever ridden. Im obsessive about tyre quality and pressure and also keep the fork oil fresh. My Niner is bog standard (it works, why mess about). Sure, it bounces a bit (less so if the said fork oil is fresh) but its never pulled any fancy tricks on me, unlike my R1. Keep the revs up (I hang around in 3rd and c 5k revs on challenging twisities) and look way ahead, using the vanishing point to your advantage. In 3rd gear, doing 60, deceleration/acceleration is pretty impressive so keep your throttle steady! My advice is to slow it all down till you get it right. When youre more confident on the bike, increase your speed gradually but not to the point where youre uncomfortable. Spend as much as you can afford on tyres and check your pressures before every ride.

Lol, yup, 3rd gear, roll off, roll on, repeat til the sun goes down.

 

OP mentioned body moving on the bike, I agree with the relaxed comment above. A few years ago I was introduced to a technique "kiss the  mirror". Drop your shoulder into the corner and turn your head completely into your corner, erm, like the strange head angles on motogp racers. It was rubbish. I spent a couple of years trying to get it right but ended up frustrated and the bike felt terrible and unpredictable. Further training taught me to smoothly pivot my knees around the tank into the corner + head and shoulder as said. It's very subtle but was a revelation. The bike tracks perfectly, stays totally stable and feels quite light transitioning through corners even with heavy throttle. It's not hanging off, knee down buffoonery, more like alternating pressure from one bum cheek to the other. Which is quite nice.

 

The other big handling lessons I've had in recent years are from gymkhana practice, all started by some slow speed training. When asked, I couldn't do a decent feet up u turn. How embarrassing. Thought about buying a Harley if I was gonna paddle. I invested in beer and further training instead. With ongoing practice I can kiss a footrest down doing a full lock turn on a good day, this is rare... The turn is controlled with rear brake while maintaining a constant throttle. As long as you have a few revs the bike wants to stand up. The brake initiates the turn, releasing it stands the bike up. Smooth and easy. 

 

At higher speed on the road, the same principle applies but I'm not in the habit of trail braking (rear brake gets hot quickly...), decelerating is enough to initiate the turn and gentle throttle maintains the lean or picks the bike up for exit.

 

Wish I had done some good training when I was younger, thirty years fooling myself until the penny dropped.

[GeneralBozo]

I find that my TDM900, once leant over, also wants to tuck tighter into the turn and I have to push outwards on the inner bar. It can be a bit disconcerting, especially when you know that your are already on the edge of the tyres 

 

[Bjørge]

I wonder if it could be the same phenomenon I experienced many years ago ? This was in 2000, I believe, my previous bike was an XS650 sold about '93 and I hired a VFR800. After picking the bike up, driving some 25kms and meeting my friend for our annual weekend bike trip, I had to tell him: "I struggle with this bike, just don't get how to steer it. Have to take a little slow." 

But then, after a few more kms, it struck me: "Just forget what you have lerned about turning motorbikes. This one turns with no muscles." - and from then on it was brilliant. 

 

This friend of mine had an Aprilia Pegaso 650 "off-road" a few years later, and I found that bike horribly hard to steer. It really needed you to use force on the bars.

 

So, I think you should try to drive the TDM with the idea in mind that it doesn't need as much steering force as what you're used to. If your tire pressure is OK, of course 

[Kelpie]

You need to ride like a girl. Trust me, they dont fall over if you keep the power on.

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[peteb]

Just a quick update. I think its a combination of new bike (only had it a month with a few rides), weird (to me) handlebars, better grip, and being too tentative about its abilities. The handlebars have to change, they are narrower, which means I'm exerting more force on them than I am used to, and they have a weird angle, and this is exacerbated when I turn in, which makes them even more weird. I guess there are some 755's in my future. The front tyre has more grip than I'm used to with mixed surface tyres, which means as I drop it into the corner it grips more than I'm used to, and feels like it wants to tuck into the corner. As for the tentativeness a lot of the advice I'm getting is more 'go for it', which will come with time and confidence in not only the bikes abilities but mine on it as well. I think another reason is that coming from 'low traction' off road I'm very sensitive to what the front end (and the bike in general) is doing, so I tend to 'amplify' different characteristics in my head. Off road you are taking inputs from the bike millisecond by millisecond, and compensating for that, maybe I need to develop more of a 'flow' to my riding with this bike.

Thanks for all the help guys, appreciated.

Pete

[harvey krumpet]

Just a quick update. I think its a combination of new bike (only had it a month with a few rides), weird (to me) handlebars, better grip, and being too tentative about its abilities. The handlebars have to change, they are narrower, which means I'm exerting more force on them than I am used to, and they have a weird angle, and this is exacerbated when I turn in, which makes them even more weird. I guess there are some 755's in my future. The front tyre has more grip than I'm used to with mixed surface tyres, which means as I drop it into the corner it grips more than I'm used to, and feels like it wants to tuck into the corner. As for the tentativeness a lot of the advice I'm getting is more 'go for it', which will come with time and confidence in not only the bikes abilities but mine on it as well. I think another reason is that coming from 'low traction' off road I'm very sensitive to what the front end (and the bike in general) is doing, so I tend to 'amplify' different characteristics in my head. Off road you are taking inputs from the bike millisecond by millisecond, and compensating for that, maybe I need to develop more of a 'flow' to my riding with this bike.

Thanks for all the help guys, appreciated.

Pete

That there is some sound self analysis. I ride dirt, too, and totally agree. Jumping on the TDM after squirting round in the loose it does feel awkward initially. Jumping onto a sports bike with clip ons is next level awkwardness.

 

If you still have a hankering for gravel you will find the TDM handles it surprisingly well, even on sport touring tyres.