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#1 Telegram Boy

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 10:55 am

I start my own franchise as a driving instructor in April...........not bad for a 64 year old, eh.

Part 2 of the driving instructors test requires an advances standard of driving. Having trained for and passed this test I find that I enjoy driving again after years of not liking it very much. I am now very relaxed and find I am in complete control of any situation. All other road users are not idiots any more, in fact I feel rather sorry for some of them. They have not had the same advantages as I have.

Although I love motorcycling now would I like riding even more with some expert tuition? I believe I would, but maybe some of you experts can confirm this.

Edited by Telegram Boy, 29 February 2008 - 10:58 am.


#2 Matrix Monkey

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 12:51 pm

QUOTE(Telegram Boy @ Fri 29th Feb 2008, 12:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I start my own franchise as a driving instructor in April...........not bad for a 64 year old, eh.

Part 2 of the driving instructors test requires an advances standard of driving. Having trained for and passed this test I find that I enjoy driving again after years of not liking it very much. I am now very relaxed and find I am in complete control of any situation. All other road users are not idiots any more, in fact I feel rather sorry for some of them. They have not had the same advantages as I have.

Although I love motorcycling now would I like riding even more with some expert tuition? I believe I would, but maybe some of you experts can confirm this.


Congratulations and well done on what you have done so far. To miss out on advanced training for the two wheels would be a shame. It will give you the ability to 'see it before it sees you' which ultimately enhances your 'time window' giving you much more time to react to any given situation, which as you point out enhances your relaxation and enjoyment.

Advanced riding, like driving, is all about observation, as you know. The more you you see, the more you know and are aware of. It's not about going fast, but does allow you to travel quicker, more safely, because you have honed your own chrystal ball to the point nothing suprises you, or catches you out.

Enjoy and well done..

M.M.

Edited by Matrix Monkey, 29 February 2008 - 08:03 pm.


#3 Baron

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 01:27 pm

Hmm, that's something I've been thinking about lately, taking some advanced driving tuition. I've been riding for decades but never educated as such, merely self taught. I think I may make some enquiries to see who can help me with this in the Aberdeen area during the summer.
Gone but not forgotten: 2007 TDM900ABS Competition White, datatagged, fenda extenda, tomtom rider 1, Yamaha main stand, Yamaha heated grips, HID headlights, Yamaha top box & city side cases, MRA Vario screen, CLS200 automatic chain oiler, Yamaha belly pan, DL650 handguards, Gi-Pro X gear indicator, SW-Motech Mirror Extensions, LED side light, Stebel Nautilus AIR HORN!!!!!

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#4 JollyGiant

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 04:53 pm

I too have thought about going along but the closet one is 35 miles away and according to the web site it's £7 per ride apperantly need at least 7 or 8 to reach test standard + £85 for the skills for life pack and a £10 for The Police Rider's Handbook. So thats £150 just to get to the test let alone pass it....

I have a mate who has done it and to reckons that it wasnt really worth it cos he didnt learn that much and it only reduced his insurance by a £10 so it would take 15+ yrs to recover this....

Also my riding is as good as his after he spent all that money blink.gif

I may be way off the mark here and hope I am cos then I may try it huh.gif

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#5 Saga Lout

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 05:44 pm

QUOTE(Jolly Giant @ Fri 29th Feb 2008, 04:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I too have thought about going along but the closet one is 35 miles away and according to the web site it's £7 per ride apperantly need at least 7 or 8 to reach test standard + £85 for the skills for life pack and a £10 for The Police Rider's Handbook. So thats £150 just to get to the test let alone pass it....

I have a mate who has done it and to reckons that it wasnt really worth it cos he didnt learn that much and it only reduced his insurance by a £10 so it would take 15+ yrs to recover this....

Also my riding is as good as his after he spent all that money blink.gif

I may be way off the mark here and hope I am cos then I may try it huh.gif

I did the police bikesafe course about 5 years ago and would thoroughly reccomend it; it was certainly worth the 60 quid and we had a really good 150 mile ride. I was pleased that he said my riding was generally a good standard but he did point-out a few faults which I conciously worked on correcting and they have made a difference. The fact is, like many of us old gits, I passed my bike test over 30 years ago and bad habits do creep in. Plus, in those days all you had to do was ride your bike around the streets and the examiner would observe you from the pavement! And, providing you didn't do anything stupid it was hard to fail. Also, like playing many sports, you can't actually see yourself doing things which are wrong and riding a bike is no different. smile.gif
Now on 9er number 2 .....

#6 Guest_Dannyboy_*

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 07:18 pm

I'm saving up for my first track day as all those that Ive spoke to who have done say it was well worth it.
Dont think I will use the 850 though, best fall off on some one else's bike. dry.gif

#7 Baron

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 07:43 pm

QUOTE(Saga Lout @ Fri 29th Feb 2008, 05:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I did the police bikesafe course about 5 years ago and would thoroughly reccomend it; it was certainly worth the 60 quid and we had a really good 150 mile ride. I was pleased that he said my riding was generally a good standard but he did point-out a few faults which I conciously worked on correcting and they have made a difference. The fact is, like many of us old gits, I passed my bike test over 30 years ago and bad habits do creep in. Plus, in those days all you had to do was ride your bike around the streets and the examiner would observe you from the pavement! And, providing you didn't do anything stupid it was hard to fail. Also, like playing many sports, you can't actually see yourself doing things which are wrong and riding a bike is no different. smile.gif

That was my test too. A joke really but thankfully I survived the subsequent years long enough to learn some biking survival skills.
Gone but not forgotten: 2007 TDM900ABS Competition White, datatagged, fenda extenda, tomtom rider 1, Yamaha main stand, Yamaha heated grips, HID headlights, Yamaha top box & city side cases, MRA Vario screen, CLS200 automatic chain oiler, Yamaha belly pan, DL650 handguards, Gi-Pro X gear indicator, SW-Motech Mirror Extensions, LED side light, Stebel Nautilus AIR HORN!!!!!

(1974....KTM Comet Cross, RD250B, XS750, Wife & kids, DT175, Suzuki GT500, XT500, XT500 (modified), ZX-10 (the 1st one!), Yamaha TT600R, Suzuki GT750B, GT750K, '04 TDM900, GSX1100F, '07 TDM900A, '06 FJR1300A

#8 Guest_E.T._*

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 08:10 pm

I am a memeber of The IAM for the car (and was an Observer for them too, until work took over my life and I travel too much to be able to dedicate the time). I also did Bikesafe, then I did RoSPA Advanced Course (getting Gold)


I have the following observations to make (pun intended)on Bikesafe, IAM and RoSPA - I'm a member of both IAM and ROSPA (RoADA)



All 3 are based on Roadcraft and will teach similar methodology


1. Bikesafe is okay as pointer, but one ride out, is not the same as doing as many ride outs you need to perfect your roadcraft. To me the biggest problem with Bikesafe is that people do it feeling "they have done an advanced course" and maybe have 20-40 minutes with an advanced rider...it ain't the same by a long long way as either IAM or RoSPA. In fact in some respects I believe it could even have a negative effect of people thinking they're okay, when in fact mostly bikesafe cops will say yes your standard on THIS ride was "x", now go and do an advanced course. It's an assessment rather than tuition and should be accepted as such...but it is not a complete waste of time PROVIDED you listen to what's being said and not what you want to hear.

2. IAM is good, but they don't grade the pass, you either pass or fail. Also once you pass you pass. I've been with a taxi driver, proudly displaying his IAM badge, and frankly his driving was Crap with a capital "K". the advantage is the insurance companies will reduce premiums for you if you pass (but not by much).


The IAM use an alternative book to Roadcraft, but based on it

I was lucky in the car to get the former chief of the Essex Police Driving School as my observer - I learnt loads from him. Truly eye opening. I had about 20 hours of tuition for £35. Cool cool.gif

3. However, RoSPA is even better for these reasons. They grade the test so you fail, bronze, silver or gold. That tells you something extra. Now there is some debate about this, but I have heard it said that a pass at IAM is the same as a pass at RoSPA. BUT the insurance companies will only discount if you have a Gold at RoSPA - despite bronze being as good as a pass at IAM....read on...
The other really good thing, if you are serious about the safety side (and not the save a bit of money side) is that you have to do a retest every three years. (there is no extra charge for this, it comes with the standard annual membership fee anyway). This ensures you stay up to scratch and don't become like that taxi driver.

Again the insurance companies will discount by a few quid - but frankly, it will take years to recoupe the expense of taking the test (not mention the fuel etc you use practicing). So if all you are interested in is saving insurance fees. Forget it. If on the other hand you are serious about increasing your riding skills and enjoyment, £150 or whatever is cheaper than private hospital treatment after you got hit because you failed to spot something.



a lot has to do with the quality of your observer - some are really experienced guys (see my IAM experience above) and some seem to be sticklers on whether you've cleaned your shoes before going out, because it shows you care for your equipment. First time I did IAM (car) I gave up because the female observer had some weird ideas of looking down side roads, even as you passed (stupid - too late to do anything by then even if a car was approaching). I mean you should look, but there comes a commitment point..anyway.. SO if you do do it and you get a cret observer, ask to have someone else help you...most are okay enough for you to learn an awful lot.



A downside to all Advanced Courses
I have met too many(far too many) that have done the course and think they know everything, and they are superior and stuck up because of it. You can follow them and pick holes left right and centre. If YOU do the course. Don't become one of those. There are plenty of people who have never done a course that ride better than those that have.

Passing the course is no guarantee of not having an accident. It is an accident reduction scheme, and yes you may be 9 times less likely to have a prang, because there are no surprises and you have anticipated everything. But lose concentration once, misread something once, have a little blast once...and that could be your lot mate. Goodbye, nice knowing you. Do not fall into that trap.

I've had a few "moments" and I can guarantee that every single time I was not doing what I should (riding too fast (knowingly), or seeing how fast I can get round a bend...not leaving anything much in reserve)

That said I've been driving riding since I was 18 (45 now) and driving 45000 miles a year for some jobs, and succeeded in zero points, zero accidents (Well, I've taken a headlight out once, and once rearended (a slight tap) a car that pulled in out in front of me as I was already doing an emergency stop for the car in front of it). But that is it. I have never fallen off a bike (except when the speedo was at zero, and Ive slipped on gravel)...I consider I must be doing something right....or just lucky?




#9 Matrix Monkey

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 08:37 pm

As E.T. says, there is a lot of variation within the 'courses' and also those that have done them. You'll find those with the most to offer are usually the quietest ones. The main thing is to take what you want from it and be your own rider. Just be a guy out enjoying his bike and scenery. wink.gif

M.M.





#10 Landy

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 09:55 pm

I still use the skills I learned on my Ambulance advanced driving course (roadcraft) every time I am in control of a motor vehicle (regardless of how many wheels), it was in 1990 and I don't claim to always follow it but I have not had any contact incidents with any other objects (moving or otherwise) since (a few close shaves) despite driving 100's of thousands of miles often at very high speed and all sorts of conditions. So to summarize I can not recommended advanced training highly enough, do as much as you can, variety is the spice of life.
I found ET's experiences very enlightening an I will be doing a course this year

Edited by Landy, 01 March 2008 - 08:46 am.

TS50ER, Suzuki GT125, Cagiva 125, Suzuki GT250 20 year gap. Honda CBF600. Discovered the joy of TDM, 1974 GT250 has joined the stable
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#11 Yellowasp

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 10:33 pm

I'm doing just that RoSPA advanced riding now:

http://dashack.co.uk...pic,4349.0.html

Read my blog on it here, the good, the bad and the ugly !!!

Would definately recommend it
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#12 mecrox

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Posted 29 February 2008 - 11:39 pm

I'm doing the IAM course at the moment. A friend said it helped him a lot. Very helpful, I wouldn't have learned this on my own I suspect. I'm a new rider and I'll admit I'm doing it for reasons of safety. I'd like to stamp out bad habits and get to learn some good ones. So far it's practice, practice, practice. But that's fine. A book only gives you the theory. Very good value, too, considering how much tuition costs in any other walk of life.

#13 catsbum

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 12:41 am

All the time the Arsewipes pull out on you and then say.... sorry did not see you,, No amount of training will help. No amount of training will help at the last moment.


Ride the Middle of the road, least you have left n right to go to


I ride on full beem, white everything, they still do it. did a door mirror on a Jazz this week. after a stop and collecting mirror,

Old guy says: Did you have your lights on?

JHT knows this one

#14 JollyGiant

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 07:57 am

I also did the wobble round the block test and passed banana.gif And about a year later became an instructor for the CBT when it first came out and after about 18 months I had went up through the ranks from a GP100 to GPZ750 and of course my riding improved and got quicker. Ater each course which was done on a sunday morning we would all go for a spirted ride to a pub and eventually I would get there first yahoo.gif every week, Then started to go for ride with some of them during the week aswell and would end up having to wait for them!!

Then one sunday morning the head instructor decided we needed a "chat about my riding" He reckoned it was dangerously fast and I could not possibly read the road etc etc and genarlly told me I wasnt a very good rider punishment.gif and that my teaching followed that line aswell huh.gif How can I ride dangerously when following a moped unsure.gif.....

Long and short of it was I gave it up and the head instructor was also an IAM Instructor and I also found out at a later date he didnt like people overtaking him cos he was IAM instructor and nobody could ride better than him rotflmmfao.gif

Also I have only had 4 crashes on the road and only 1 of them was my fault and that was 17 yrs ago when I was young and brave good.gif

My Super Modded TDM has gone to a new home :(

 

I'm now a carbon whore!


#15 ChrisG

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 10:22 am

Did my IAM test a few years back though a local IAM club. Agree that RoSPA appears to be a slightly higher standard, and like the fact that it's a short term thing rather than the IAM's pass/fail. However the advantage is the IAM is way cheaper (think I pay around £20/year to be a member and all my observed rides cost me was my fuel and a cup of coffee for my observer), and the club approach means there's always the availability of more observeration or learning other skills (they run a lot of events like braking course, track days, etc.). I think a lot of club members have done the RoSPA as well, and all the observers are also assessed every couple of years.

I'd say any form of additional trianing is well worth it. I learned loads and there's always more to learn (as ET implies, watch out for those who think they've got nothing left to learn!)

1992 Mk1, 76k miles, Hagon springs, MTC exhaust, 4½ gears Gone now :(
2009 900 abs, 42k miles, Yamaha heated grips, double bubble screen, R&G crash bungs, scottoiler, Autocom, 1500 lumen LED spotlights.

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#16 Guest_E.T._*

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 10:46 am

QUOTE(CatsBum @ Sat 1st Mar 2008, 12:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All the time the Arsewipes pull out on you and then say.... sorry did not see you,, No amount of training will help. No amount of training will help at the last moment.



that is not true..It is very very rear that situation just "happens", there is invariably a sequence of events that builds to the (potential) accident. You should be able to detect whether someone has seen you, it's looking at eye contact, wheel movement of a vehicle pullingout, considering whether the distance between you and the car in front might be inviting to that car (in which case you would have already closed that gap to make it less inviting).

Positioning early on in the approach, puts you in a recognisable position (ie get yourself out of the way of street furniture). Have a contingency plan, if the guy pulls out I'm going here... (alright it doesn't stop dickhead pulling out, but it does make it a non-event because you have somewhere to go already planned).

Ever tried and an emergency stop from 30? You can stop in a couple of bikes lengths...and its rarely that's not enough if the guy comes, and of course you are already in the most responsive gear, so if you are passed that point of no return, even if then he comes, the accelleration on a TDM will get you out of the way faster than he can come out of the junction.

Now, no thing on its own will be 100%, but multiply them altogether and you end up at really low risk. I mean, yeah I've had people pull out - but its always been yeah I suspected that might happen, dickhead kind of response. Since I've done advanced training, 10 years ago in the car, I haven't had do do one emergency stop, right on the limit (yes I've had hard braking on the odd occasion, but no ABS cut in or real heart stoppers shit am I going to make it moments). That's 25000 miles on the bike and, well at least 200000 in the car...probably more).

I suppose ultimately one can never say, its never going to happen, but it would be very very rare.



"No amount of training will help", I disagree strongly...and in fact if comments like that put people off getting trained, I think that's a shame. One can only really take a valid view from people that have been done both, because people that haven't been through the training don't really know what that training is (at least tot he same extent) nor can really judge what difference it makes. Read the comments from people that have done it above and every one sees an improvement.

I've been in an untrained position and I've been in a trained position, so I see it from both sides. I have nothing to gain BTW in supporting advanced training, if I thought it were pants I would say so. What you are getting is an honest, impartial, my real life view not some advertising crap, dressed up to be something its not.

The class A Police riders and drivers have accidents too - but you consider the speeds and situations those guys go through comparative a normal driver travelling within the speed limits and not on an emergency shout, and I suspect the accident level of those guys, at normal road speeds will be close to zero too. ...oh and I bet you when they do have a prang, they are doing something outside their training, loss of concentration, red-mist or something else. Apply the system and its as good as it gets.

If you don't believe me and really want to know the true answer to this debate - do the training and then take a view...no one says you have to apply it afterwards if you felt your original way of riding was better/safer, go back to that then (bet you don't)...at the end of the day its £85 and some time and commitment.

<picks up soap-box and moves away>

Edited by E.T., 01 March 2008 - 11:13 am.


#17 Yellowasp

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 10:56 am

QUOTE(E.T. @ Sat 1st Mar 2008, 10:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
that is not true..It is very very rear that situation just "happens", there is invariably a sequence of events that builds to the (potential) accident. You should be able to detect whether someone has seen you, it's looking at eye contact, wheel movement of a vehicle pullingout, considering whether the distance between you and the car in front might be inviting to that car (in which case you would have already closed that gap to make it less inviting).

Positioning early on in the approach, puts you in a recognisable position (ie get yourself out of the way of street furniture). Have a contingency plan, if the guy pulls out I'm going here... (alright it doesn't stop dickhead pulling out, but it does make it a non-event because you have somewhere to go already planned).

Ever tried and an emergency stop from 30? You can stop in a couple of bikes lengths...and its rarely that's not enough if the guy comes, and of course you are already in the most responsive gear, so if you are passed that point of no return, even if then he comes, the accelleration on a TDM will get you out of the way faster than he can come out of the junction.

Now, no thing on its own will be 100%, but multiply them altogether and you end up at really low risk. I mean, yeah I've had people pull out - but its always been yeah I suspected that might happen, dickhead kind of response. Since I've done advanced training, 10 years ago in the car, I haven't had do do one emergency stop, right on the limit (yes I've had hard braking on the odd occasion, but no ABS cut in or real heart stoppers shit am I going to make it moments). That's 25000 miles on the bike and, well at least 200000 in the car...probably more).

I suppose ultimately one can never say, its never going to happen, but it would be very very rare.
"No amount of training will help", I disagree strongly...and in fact if comments like that put people off getting trained, I think that's a shame. One can only really take a valid view from people that have been done both, because people that haven't been through thte training don't really know what that training is (at least tot he same extent) nor can really judge what difference it makes. REad the comments from people that have done it above and every ne sees an improvement.

I've been in an untrained position and I've been in a trained position, so I see it from both sides. I have nothing to gain BTW in supporting advanced training, if I thought it were pants I would say so. What you are getting is an honest, impartial, my real life view not some advertising crap, dressed up to be something its not.

The class A Police riders and drivers have accidents too - but you consider the speeds and situations those guys go through comparative a normal driver travelling within the speed limits and not on an emergency shout, and I suspect the accident level of those guys will be close to zero too. ...oh and I bet you when they do have a prang, they are doing something outside their training, loss of concentration, red-mist or something else. Apply the system and its as good as it gets.

If you really want to know the true answer to this debate - do the training and then take a view...no one says you have to apply it afterwards if you felt your original way of riding was better/safer, go back to that then (bet you don't)...at the end of the day its £85 and some time and commitment.

<picks up soap-box and moves away>


Very well put and I agree good.gif

Just over half way on my training.
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#18 Guest_Negwedar_*

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 11:18 am

As a former ADI, first let me say congratulations, well done, and good luck with the instruction part of the test. (Way back when I did it, we had the drive and instruction on the same day, just swapped seats after the drive). Stay calm, keep it good-natured, and cover the dual brake.......Supervising Examiners won't actually kill you, but they don't care about bending your car, so stay alert.
In answer to the "should I, shouldn't I?" thing, well, that's a bit of a poser. The roadcraft you have learned and demonstrated is already more than is expected by any of the amateur organisations, but it's also general, which is to say not motorcycle specific. So the guy or gal who is "teaching" you is likely to be less qualified than you are, but at the same time more experienced in their particular field. This may lead to tension, as some of the things they advise you to do are just plain wrong, although often effective. If you can cope with this, and not argue with them, you will probably gain insight and benefit from advanced training. If you are of a more pedantic nature (like me, sadly) then it will only lead to strife. You pays your money, and you takes your choice, as they say.
So, in conclusion, it's your decision to take. On the one hand, further training and the acquisition of knowledge is a good thing in and of itself, but on the other hand if it has even a small chance of clashing with knowledge you already have, and leading to momentary indecision, then I would counsel avoidance.

That's a big block of text with little to relieve the brain or the eye, so sprinkle a few of these around wherever you feel is most appropriate wink.gif rolleyes.gif dry.gif tongue.gif unsure.gif good.gif

#19 Matrix Monkey

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 12:01 pm

Try this one for linked discussion.....

One of the best forms of training for road riding is a full and proper 'off road' course..but a day or two messing about is better than nowt.

You'll learn a lot more about yourself to start with. The main thing is the fun aspect but serious subjects like braking and tyre efficiency on wet surfaces will give you an eye opener. Yes you can give the front a hand full on wet grass ...(I know you're going to mention block tyres but it's principles you'll explore)... Plus your confidence bubble will be increased. You'll aquire a set of skills that translated onto tarmac will allow you not to be spooked by a twitch of the rear. But purists will say you should never experience a twitch in the first place. MMMMmmmm ?? Lighten up.......

Besides - you will never have so much fun as off roading, and I promise you, you will be laughing when you've fallen off in 2 feet deep mud and your goggles have water inside.Remember you are enjoying your ride, let's not get too starchy!

Those of you that have moto-x or trail experience know what I mean..

Maybe the guys and guyesses can get together and organsie a 'corporate' deal at a training/experience venue ??

Go on, Go on, Go on, Go on, Go on, Go on, Go on, .........Go on, Go on, Go on, Go on, Go on, Go on, Go on.....


Cheers

M.M.

Edited by Matrix Monkey, 01 March 2008 - 12:02 pm.


#20 ChrisG

ChrisG

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 12:15 pm

Funny you should mention that...

I had a go on a WR250 at the NEC bike show. They had a little track set up in the woods and just let you get one with it. Great fun. The Yamaha school offer a 10% discount to Yamaha owners and do a one day course not far from me too, I'm very tempted.

1992 Mk1, 76k miles, Hagon springs, MTC exhaust, 4½ gears Gone now :(
2009 900 abs, 42k miles, Yamaha heated grips, double bubble screen, R&G crash bungs, scottoiler, Autocom, 1500 lumen LED spotlights.

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