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Two Stroke Puzzle - Help Needed!


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#1 Quartermaster

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 04:21 pm

Last Monday came back from a 60 mile ride out on my Suzuki GT380 triple. No problems and a nice and relaxing trip around the Worcestershire countryside. However, when I clicked the bike into neutral at the end of the run I noticed that the motor died - it normally ticks over nicely. Bit puzzled by this but wheeled the bike into the garage and left it until today.

 

I thought I'd start it just to make sure that it was OK but had big issues. It would run briefly after kicking it over then die. Thinking fuel starvation I primed the carbs but problem persisted. Also noticed a lot and I mean A LOT of smoke pouring out of all 4 exhausts. Took out the plugs and sure enough, coated in oil. Eventually I got it running at 4K but the neighbourhood disappeared in smoke.

 

I thought it might be a gearbox oil seal but in that case at least one of the cylinders is connected to the alternator side only so I would have thought that it shouldn't smoke on all pipes. The only other thing I can think of is that I've been running it on Castrol 2T for the last 2 years since I had the bike but recently ran out of the stuff and a chum gave me a gallon of fully synthetic Silkolene which I used for the first time to top up the oil tank before my ride out.  I'm just wondering if this may be the cause of the problem. The Suzuki CCS oil pump system is normally very reliable.

 

I've cleaned out the oil tank and will fill it with fresh Castrol but I'm really not confident that this is the root of the problem despite the coincidental timing.

 

Any thoughts would be most welcome.

 

 

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#2 gozer

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 06:00 pm

If you`re getting that much oil on the plugs / smoke, the first thing I`d check is the pump adjustment in case the locking screw has come loose and  it`s slipped out of kilter. You could also try draining all the 2T out of it and running some premix to see if it is a pump adjustment problem. Or have you got a weak spark for some reason and it`s not firing strongly enough to give a clean burn?



#3 Favs

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 06:45 pm

+1 check pump


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#4 celticbiker

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 12:34 am

Are you /your mate sure it was 2 stroke oil in the can and not 4 stroke.



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#5 Quartermaster

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 07:17 am

Thanks Guys

 

Pump would seem favourite, I've checked the settings and they agree with the manual so nothing obvious there.

 

Gozer - running some premix sounds like a good plan but I don't want to entirely drain the oil pump as it is apparently difficult to prime so that's a last resort.

 

Celtic- Definitely 2 - stroke oil


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#6 Favs

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:17 pm

Worth a look...
Cheapest first......
Float height/sticking + carb check = harder to start, wet plugs, more smoke
Worn top end
Crankcase seal

Be aware that if you do decide to go premix to check the pump, bleed it properly else it cost you a crank.

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#7 Toydepartment

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 11:11 pm

Couldn't you just remove the oil pipes where they go onto the spigots on the inlets, tape plastic bags on them, cap off the spigots, and run premix? At least you wouldn't have to worry about priming the oil pump again. Plus you would be able to rule out the pump being the problem.

 

Or am I missing something?  



#8 Quartermaster

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 07:24 am

Thanks for the constructive thoughts everyone. I'm going to drain the remnants of the synthetic oil out of the tank tonight and add mineral based 2T which it has been runnning happily on for years. It is just possible that there has been some kind of reaction between the two types of oil and it's gummed up the pump.

 

I'll keep you posted.


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#9 gozer

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 09:44 am

I mentioned this to a mate of mine and the first thing he said was to check the pump before looking for more expensive and difficult problems to fix. Also, mixing mineral and fully synthetic 2T oils isn`t a good idea as they can react with each other and form gel like clots, but that doesn`t explain the amount you seem to be getting to the plugs. He agreed with my idea of isolating the oil supply you have and running premix will confirm whether it`s a pump problem or not and at least you know you won`t get a terminal seizure by doing it. It`ll also not cost any more than a bottle of oil that you`ll use anyway. Now that the mix of mineral/synth has reached the pump, it would be wise to flush out the pump and double check it`s set up correctly. Apparently it`s not hard to prime, just a case of removing a bleed screw and waiting for the fresh oil to run through, but that was from a distant memory. Good luck.



#10 dandywarhol

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 11:57 pm

There's something knawing away in my tired ol' noggin that says there's a crankcase oil drain system in these strokers..................

 

Not entirely related but this might help for other info   http://www.ozebook.c...ndium/techbuls/


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#11 Quartermaster

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 12:08 pm

Further experimentation is suggesting, and I say this with a heavy heart, that its a crankshaft oil seal, the one adjacent to the gearbox, hence the clouds of acrid smoke as the gearbox oil is sucked into the crankcase.. The Suzuki is now sitting under a blanket at the back of the garage awaiting my attention when I find time. :(


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#12 Catteeclan

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 05:24 pm

Is that a big strip down or just the side casing etc?


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#13 dandywarhol

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 06:24 pm

Further experimentation is suggesting, and I say this with a heavy heart, that its a crankshaft oil seal, the one adjacent to the gearbox, hence the clouds of acrid smoke as the gearbox oil is sucked into the crankcase.. The Suzuki is now sitting under a blanket at the back of the garage awaiting my attention when I find time. :(

So why do you think the left and middle cylinder smoke? Is there a common drain system for the sealed crankcases? The gearbox/crank seal should only feed the right cylinder...................................I'd a 380 in the 70s - different! It had a 5 gallon alloy tank and a Wassel 3:1 zorst, took it to Switzerland and got refused entry cos of the noise!


Edited by dandywarhol, 26 June 2014 - 06:26 pm.

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#14 Quartermaster

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 08:55 pm

So why do you think the left and middle cylinder smoke? Is there a common drain system for the sealed crankcases? The gearbox/crank seal should only feed the right cylinder...................................I'd a 380 in the 70s - different! It had a 5 gallon alloy tank and a Wassel 3:1 zorst, took it to Switzerland and got refused entry cos of the noise!

 

I don't quite know how to put this, Dandy, and indeed all the good people who have been so kind and come up with such helpful and indeed novel theories and solutions. I have in fact cracked the problem. Even as I type these words I am glowing with embarrassment. Why did all three cylinders smoke if the gearbox crank seal had gone, it should only have been the right hand one, adjacent to the gearbox. I thought of all kinds of theories but none matched the facts as they presented themselves to me. The key was the noxious fumes, not at all like two stroke mix. When I came back from my ride I filled up to check my fuel consumption (34.4 mpg) I think you can all guess what's coming next..........................  Fortunately, I'd kept the receipt. 4.81 litres of diesel. May I nominate myself for the prestigious Carpe Prat Of The Year?


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#15 dandywarhol

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Posted 26 June 2014 - 10:07 pm

Jeebus  :rotflmmfao: good man for finding the problem. You could've upped your compression ratio and saved the diesel  ;)

 

 

Here's your next project quartermaster.................................... 

custom_volkswagen_turbo-diesel_motorcycl


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#16 erdferkel

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 05:46 am

Congrats for solving the mystery.

But then again two-stroke diesels are not that uncommon.

https://en.wikipedia...e_diesel_engine

 

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#17 Catteeclan

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 05:49 am

:lol:  The misses did that when she had a XS250 custom. She managed to get a good way up the road before it sputter to a halt.


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#18 stu

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 08:34 am

I love a happy ending.

 

Fair play for 'fessing up, QM


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#19 gozer

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 09:17 am

 

 4.81 litres of diesel. May I nominate myself for the prestigious Carpe Prat Of The Year?

Nomination accepted. I think the technical term for doing this is.......erm...........oh, I know...KNOBHEAD! :rotflmmfao:  :rotflmmfao:  :rotflmmfao:



#20 Quartermaster

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Posted 27 June 2014 - 09:27 am

Nomination accepted. I think the technical term for doing this is.......erm...........oh, I know...KNOBHEAD! :rotflmmfao:  :rotflmmfao:  :rotflmmfao:

If you look West from Birmingham, you should still be able to see the smoke.........


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