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2004 Tdm 900 Not Starting


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#1 Fenestrom

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Posted 03 November 2021 - 03:08 pm

Been tearing my hair, whats left of in anyway, out on this one

Never had an issue starting engine until -

Returning home 3 weeks ago I stopped at shop and when I came out it started for a second and has never started again

Been all over wiring, usual corroded cable for FI pump but that was running anyway until I lifted start inhibit relay out to inspect. Joint repaired and FI pump runs OK.

New start inhibit relay anyway

Still no change

Plugs good and new ones

Weak or interminttent spark from both plugs when spinning engine over.

Nothing in DIAG that shows

When doing coil check from DIAG 30 & 31if there is some fuel in cylinders I get ignition in each barrel in turn.

Good fat spark with plugs out when triggering 30 & 31 on DIAG test just not when spinning over.

Battery good

 

What am I missing?

Anyone had this exact symptom before. I am electrically very competent with good test kit, repair kit etc but now baffled

All ideas considered.


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#2 dapleb

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Posted 03 November 2021 - 03:23 pm

Hello dare and welcome.
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#3 dablik

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Posted 03 November 2021 - 05:37 pm

Had a non starting issue long ago with my Niner and turned out to be the cam sensor in my case !! is it possible ? 


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#4 Catteeclan

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Posted 03 November 2021 - 06:02 pm

Sure that battery's good? Could try a jump to rule it out. Connect the earth cable to the engine rather than battery, another way to check for a good earth between chassis and engine.

Think I'd try a bit of easy start or something, again to see if it's def sparks or fuel.

and hello.
 


Edited by Catteeclan, 03 November 2021 - 06:04 pm.

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#5 fixitsan

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Posted 03 November 2021 - 06:06 pm

Can you smell fuel in the exhausts ? A good spark and firing when you manually add fuel might mean a fuel system fault.

 

With the airbox removed can you see fuel being injected down in the throttle bodies ?


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#6 Fenestrom

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Posted 03 November 2021 - 07:02 pm

Had a non starting issue long ago with my Niner and turned out to be the cam sensor in my case !! is it possible ? 

 

That was my hot money on Monday but I am getting the right readings off the Hall effect sensor. Below 0.8 and above 4.8 volts dependent on/off state.

 

Sure that battery's good? Could try a jump to rule it out. Connect the earth cable to the engine rather than battery, another way to check for a good earth between chassis and engine.

Think I'd try a bit of easy start or something, again to see if it's def sparks or fuel.

and hello.
 

Yes that was done early on with a battery off a Merc Sprinter. and a pair of monster jump leads. Fuel is getting in, in fact I have to unplug the FI pump as I get more than enough. There is a good difference between the spark when cranking over where it is weak and orange and the spark when triggering the coils from DIAG where it's as fat as a cow and blue.

 

Can you smell fuel in the exhausts ? A good spark and firing when you manually add fuel might mean a fuel system fault.

 

With the airbox removed can you see fuel being injected down in the throttle bodies ?

I can see it and it misting when throttle opened. Plenty going to the bores

 

Thanks all for ideas and consideration though.


Edited by Fenestrom, 03 November 2021 - 07:03 pm.

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#7 Snowbird

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Posted 04 November 2021 - 07:49 am

Spark strength difference is possibly down to cranking engine reducing available volts to the coils.


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#8 Fenestrom

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Posted 04 November 2021 - 08:13 am

I shall revist this again then on Saturday along with everyone else's thoughts.. Thanks


Edited by Fenestrom, 04 November 2021 - 08:13 am.

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#9 Catteeclan

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Posted 04 November 2021 - 08:52 am

You can check the engine/chassis earth with a volt meter set to volts. Just to rule it out.

Will it start with a bump/tow? Starter drawing too much current.


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#10 fixitsan

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Posted 04 November 2021 - 04:22 pm

A known fault with TDM900s, is the stator windings of the alternator burn out.

Have you measured the battery voltage ? When mine failed the starter would still turn over the engine, but it drew so much current the voltage dropped too low for the electronics to work correctly. I believe that for that reason some of the relays are spec'd for lower than 12V, but a low cranking voltage will stop it from starting.


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#11 Fenestrom

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Posted 06 November 2021 - 03:53 pm

Update

Dropped  a new battery in this morning. Old Yuasa is seeminly in good condition on the Optimate 4, oh well.

Tried some fuel down the intakes but no change. Injectors are pushing fuel in anyway.


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#12 TKH

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Posted 06 November 2021 - 06:37 pm

It shouldn't be this from what you've said, but, what about the side stand switch, or the clutch switch? Have you tried pulling the clutch in when trying to start?



#13 Fenestrom

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Posted 07 November 2021 - 10:05 pm

It shouldn't be this from what you've said, but, what about the side stand switch, or the clutch switch? Have you tried pulling the clutch in when trying to start?

Thanks but sidestand switch and neutral switch are fine, they meter out fine and also behave as they should, one of the first checks I made, If in gear then pulling the cluth in alows starter to run.

Its not a starter issue, it's not firing up thats what the problem is.


Edited by Fenestrom, 07 November 2021 - 10:05 pm.

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#14 fixitsan

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Posted 07 November 2021 - 10:25 pm

"Weak or interminttent spark from both plugs when spinning engine over."

 

Is that still the case ?

It's a good place to start.

I would check coil resistance, and also double check the plugs, to make sure they're not fakes, and that they're the correct type (resistor vs non resistor),

Check  the fuses too. to make sure all the terminals are clean.


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#15 Fenestrom

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 09:14 am

Thanks fixitsan

 

Did this before but as I will go with all considered suggestions I did it again this AM

 

Both coils Primary 4.1 Ohms Secondary 12.5K Ohms so both within spec.

New NGKs bought as soon as I had issues to elimanate a basic.


Edited by Fenestrom, 08 November 2021 - 09:15 am.

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#16 dablik

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 10:50 am

I would go over the connectors once again, i have found issues on 2nd look around before, have you checked ignition switch inside, broken or partially broken cable inside is a trick of the mk1 particularly, i guess you probably checked this already though..


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#17 Rallyist

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 01:28 pm

Has the bike got an immobilizer? Fitted as standard 2004 on, I had a problem with mine the connection between the key and immobilizer which fits over the ignition switch had dodgy connections not helped with other keys on the same keyring.


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#18 Fenestrom

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 08:44 pm

I would go over the connectors once again, i have found issues on 2nd look around before, have you checked ignition switch inside, broken or partially broken cable inside is a trick of the mk1 particularly, i guess you probably checked this already though..

Ignition switch meters out well and I also bypassed it electrically whilst still keeping the key in for the immobiliser. Apart from the rotten connection on the FI pump cable from the inhibit relay falling out on me when I was starting my checks after it broke down the connectors are in much better nick than I imagined..

 

Has the bike got an immobilizer? Fitted as standard 2004 on, I had a problem with mine the connection between the key and immobilizer which fits over the ignition switch had dodgy connections not helped with other keys on the same keyring.

Yes it has an immobiliser. I even bought a Yamaha immobiliser bypass device that plugs in under the tank on the other mating plug to the keywitch immobilers ring which had some very funny effects. The fact that the inhibit relay comes on ruled that out really.

 

I have gone through it all again, got decent sparks all round once I put a cover over myself and bike and created a darker area. Got injectors pulsing, FI pump and cutoff work, all sensors clear on DIAG and also testing. My main focus was on cam sensor but on turning the flywheel round by hand I am getting everything arrive as it should, probably not at the same time as the pistons want it too though.

 

I am now, after reading through the forum, leaning towards something mechanical like cam chain jump, especially as I remember how the whole sorry story started. I started the bike after stopping to get something from the local shop where it had been fine all morning. It ran very briefly and stopped suddenly and I always thought I had heard something from top of the engine. It never ran again. I suspect it may have jumped a tooth or two especially after reading about other who have had the same here.

 

Next stage is get the rocker cover off and look at timing chain, timing and adjuster. Spent too long beating myself up with management, ECU, FI etc. It's not that it all happening in that dept.

 

Oh, and after all that I bought another Niner this afternoon.

 

And once again thanks to all who have kindly contributed over the last week, useful cam and timing tips and thoughts welcomed.


Edited by Fenestrom, 08 November 2021 - 08:56 pm.

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#19 curlylegend

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Posted 08 November 2021 - 10:50 pm

Have you done a compression check ?



#20 dablik

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Posted 09 November 2021 - 09:21 am

Lots on cams and timing in the knowledgebase have a read through, 9r in further pages but near as the same for 8fiddly...

 

Ps If you wanted to check the cam sensor for sure, i took out the crank sensor from behind the sprocket cover as a swap to test the cam sensor ( i believe it's actually a "get you home swap") bike ran rough as a pigs ear but proved a buggered cam sensor, perhaps worth checking, i did have help and your more clued up than i am, but perhaps it may help !!!


Bigred mk1 R1 Calipers- Braided lines- Givi wing rack-Crash bungs- Hi vis bullets-PR2's- and a hoot to ride.

Quad 900 Silver Laser duo tech pipes-Scott oiler-Engine crash bars- Radiator mounted see me ring LED's-Datatool system 3 alarm -Centre stand- Extender fender-Renthal bars-Handle bar risers-Mirror extenders-BMW GS Handgaurds-Acumen uprated horn & Nautilus-Stainless steel Radiator guard-Givi wing rack-OEM screen-Yammy touring screen-MRA Vario-MRA Double bubble cut down for fast as fk riding-Tiger screen-Tank protector-Stomp grip panels-Optimate lead   Gone to Heaven  :sorry: 

 

1991 MK1 in need of some TLC watch this space   :) Sorted and on the Road Mick  :P  :P it's the bike that Jack built  ;) Gone to Heaven  :wub: 

 



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