30 replies to this topic

[Pjkr44]

Hi all.

I have previously posted my problems with '91 tdm. Bought it from a garage and now 4 months later finally found the problem that I have not noticed when buying the bike (have little experience in that). According to my mechanic, the engine is worn and burns oil, said the engine needs taken apart to fix it, estimated 700-800 quid for the job. A lot, though I live in expensive area so I guess somewhere a bit out would be a bit cheaper. Anyway, that's how much the bike is worth and I don't have that kind of money to throw at it. My options are - sell for spares or repairs, try to convince the garage take it back though 4 months later I doubt anyone even will even talk to me, or - and this takes me to the main question - as I don't have much to lose, I might try and take the whole thing apart and do it myself with help from you guys and couple of friends that are mechanically intelligent. How difficult the task might be, if I'm not limited by time? I have never done anything of the sort, but I have common sense and logic.
Please lay out your thoughts what would you do in my case.

Many thanks.

[dmmsta]

Hiya,

 

When you say "worn & burns oil" what sort of symptoms are you experiencing?

The original 850's burn oil - all of them - to a greater/lesser degree.

 

If you symptom(s) is oil usage then this is pretty much par for the course.

 

You'll find a huge number of posts about the subject.  I've never owned an 850 so can't directly comment on the subject, but from what I've read its a case of being very aware of oil levels until you have an idea of the amount of oil it uses, then you'll have an idea of how many miles per litre of oil you get out of your bike.

There is a technical reason for the oil usage, something to do with the cylinder liners I think.

 

If thats the only problem (I haven't read previous posts) then as long as you keep it well monitored you won't need to strip & rebuild.

 

If its more than that then I would suggest that there are a number of people on here that will be able to provide input along with your friends with mechanical knowledge.

Depending on where you are there may well be members that are local that can come visit (tea & cake is the currency on this forum) and assist as needed.

 

I'm sure there will be some of the 850 guru's along to ask more probing questions about the situation so you'll have a better angle on the situation soon.

 

 

Regs

[fixitsan]

I reduced oil usage by replacing the output shaft oil seal. There is a lot of oil pressure behind it and when the shaft spins in the worn seal a little dribble of oil oozes out.

 

You can check this by taking the covers off around the front sprocket and examining the shaft which the front sprocket mounts on. If it's wet with oil behind there, and not just chain oil, then there's a chance that a seal replacement will help you out.

[dapleb]

Hiya,
 
When you say "worn & burns oil" what sort of symptoms are you experiencing?

Ed Zachery. More details of the perceived problem pleasey.

If there is an actual problem other than standard oil use then oid have a chat with the place that sold you the boike first.

Depending on where you are there may well be members that are local that can come visit (tea & cake is the currency on this forum) and assist as needed

And this.

[Pjkr44]

Thanks for your thoughts. I especially liked the "currency" here

 

The oil problem is that, according to my mechanic, who I trust and all local bikers swear by him, that when engine is running, it burns so much oil that it clogs up the spark plugs to the point where it would just won't start. After changing new plugs it takes only a couple of rides to muck it up. It is also quite smokey when starting a cold engine, something that developed recently. I will only go and collect the bike in a few days as I'm away, so will talk more thoroughly with the mechanic and see if I can understand anything else he might say. But according to him, that's the problem.

Initially, the problem was juddering below 4k rpm, very un-smooth power delivery that got worse and worse.

Now after I collect my bike I will try to contact the garage who sold the bike. Anyone knows where I could get legal advice on buying old vehicles and returning the shitty ones back? I have a feeling it's only about 30 days after the purchase that this could be done... But maybe it's not true?


And finally, I hope to find some friends here from Sussex area, best if in Brighton! I see one old grey tdm once in a while, if it is you, I say hello and come over for a cuppa!

[fixitsan]

I think from a legal perspective, sorry to say, there is little you can do now. You would need to be able to show some attempts to get the garage to accept there was a fault with the bike shortly after buying it. If you are just thinking of approaching them now then they're within their rights to say you have broke it and are trying to get them to fix it....or game with a similar plot.

 

But, you could go and talk to them carefully first and you never know, they might just feel like helping out, as long as you leave it on their terms

[dablik]

Personally i dont think you'll have much recourse from the sellers 4 months along, was it sold as seen !! as above if it's only issue is oil usage and 1 litre per thousand miles is deemed acceptable by Yamaha, in the worst case scenario and you have friends to help you could strip it down quite quickly and have it sorted, the bikes worth it.

[dapleb]

What is boikes mileage?

Is it fouling the plugs with wetness or dryness? Could be the emulsion tubes if sooty plugs

Because these boikes use oil it is possible that the enjun has been run low on oil and damaged but oi would eliminate all other possibilities first.

In terms of rebuild, for entire correct rebuild you are looking at £250+ in parts just for gaskets/rings etc. If oil starvation has fray bentosed the LHS internals then you have bigger problems.

The mech price sounds reasonable for a complete correct rebuild using OEM parts. If you would rather build it yersen then there are a number of us on ear who have done it before and would help you out.... But definitely check out the simplest things first... Including speaking to the garage.

Lettuce snow how you get on and what the verdict is.

[dablik]

So i expect around £250 will get a hone and a skim along with the gaskets and rings and new valve stem seals daps, not bad at all me thinks, fingers crossed that's the worst case scenario ! if it's worserer than that i guess it means another engine.

[Studley Ramrod]

It's worth having the cylinders compression tested as this might indicate bore/ piston ring wear.  As Dappers says, it could be worn carb emulsion tubes or it could be petrol leaking into the cylinders via the carbs.  If the float height is set too high petrol can find it's way into the cylinder bores and cause the plugs to foul when you start it up.  A smell (or lick) of the engine oil should tell you if there's any petrol in there.

[Pjkr44]

Hi all.

Been away for a while, so late reply.
Got my TDM from mechanic, said the same thing - engine burns oil real bad. Seen it starting, it's much worse than before. And he has showed me the spark plugs that were new and only after a few miles been covered in black soot. I've mentioned carb emulsion tubes, though not sure myself what they are, he said it's been checked - definitely engine problem.

So I have a choice now - try and sell it for spares or repairs and get rid of unlucky bike (it's def not been looked after) and put that small amount of money towards a better bike or try fixing the engine myself as I don't want to spend more money on this bike, paying mechanic to do it.

I also don't have a garage - do you guys think it would be possible to do work on the street where I park my bike? obviously once the engine is out, I can take it in my flat and do it there. I'm just guessing around, I have absolutely no idea how much effort, tools and equipment I will need for this kind of endeavor.

All your thoughts and ideas are very welcome.

Many thanks

[fixitsan]

+1 for the compression test

 

Worst case, the rocker cover will need to be removed, then the cylinder head, and then the cylinders/bores. It is possible to do it with the engine in place, but doing it on the street isn't ideal for obvious reasons. When you're stripping an engine down this far cleanliness is everything.

 

Possible problem areas are the coolant pipe coming out of the top of the cylinder head - it is held in place with a single hex screw, which can rust up and seize in place. Check it can be accessed and slackened off. Do the same for the exhaust downpipe nuts and studs going into the cylinder head. If these are all easy to free up then you won't be in too much trouble.

 

Only you know if you will be able to tackle it, so i would download a manual, or service guide, or get a Haynes manual , and review whats involved with removing the rocker cover, the cylinder head and the cylinders. Check also the routine for changing the piston rings, which can be done with the engine still in the bike.

 

You will need a cylinder base gasket, cylinder head gasket and possibly a rocker cover gasket. The cylinders ought to be 'honed' at the same time. this can be done at a machine shop or, if you know someone with the DIY tool you can do it well enough yourself for free

 

If removing the cylinder head it is normal to think about stripping it down to renew the valve stem oil seals. This needs a valve spring compressor tool (£30) but there are a few 'old tricks' too. Have a look at online guides detailing stripping down a cylinder head and cleaning the ports and valves.

£350 for a secondhand engine ? (just passing it on) http://www.carpe-tdm...363#entry358816

Edited by fixitsan, 13 March 2018 - 11:47 pm.

[Nog]

Hate to say it but it sounds like a spares/repair sale might be the best case.

 

If you were handy with engines and had a garage to work in i'd say go for the strip down as you have nothing to lose, but on the street with little experience (from what I can tell) I think you'd be better off putting it on ebay.

 

You'd be surprised how high some bikes with spares/repair will go for, so you might not do too badly to get some of your money back.

 

Edit - that said, have you seen the post for the engine for sale - http://www.carpe-tdm...topic=35363&hl=

 

For £350, would just be a case of chucking the engine in and selling the old for spares to get some cash back.

 

Might be another option and a lot less hassle than an engine strip.

Edited by Nog, 14 March 2018 - 10:45 am.

[Pjkr44]

Thanks peeps.

Yes, I think stripping the engine, as rewarding as it could be, might a bit too much for little experience that I have. I know I could eventually do it, I like to think I'm not stupid (though many stupid people think they're smart ass), but having no garage it might turn into a bit of a headache. Yes, two options here - try selling for repairs or swapping the engine.
Might you let me know how much of work that would include? How achievable is that, again, having no garage? I have no spare money to pay someone else to do it, so it would have to be me and hopefully my mates might lend a hand. I can borrow pretty much all the tools I will need, that's a bonus. And small chance, but maybe I could find a garage for short time while I do the swapping.

I also might try to put in on ebay for spares and see what kind of moneys I can get for it.. But having that money plus the cost of the engine will not bring me much, I don't think. And prices are on the rise at the mo, so I don't think I'd get much for the funds I have/will have... Again, your thoughts are very welcome, I learn here from more experienced and I appreciate that.
 

[chrisbee]

OR,
You could just keep riding the bike, and keep topping up the oil. I only take stuff apart when it stops working.

[dandywarhol]

Ok, my tuppenceworth. If it was burning oil so badly the street would be full of BLUE smoke from the exhaust. Is it burning blue smoke?

 

If yes, then it's an engine overhaul

 

If no and i suspect you'd have mentioned BLUE smoke earlier, then the problem sounds like severe OVERFUELLING. This could be down to a few tings from a clogged air filter to worn emulsion tubes. After around 15,000 miles the tubes wear - even quicker if the engine is "lugged" like a cruiser at low revs. 

 

I think you need to establish if it's oil (blue smoke) or overfuelling (black smoke) before you start stripping the engine. I've found that when these engines use oil they  rarely emit blue smoke from oil burning but it can usually be smelled when riding behind it.

[thelodger]

I agree with Dandywarhol. The problem sounds like it is running far too rich rather than using huge amounts of oil sufficient to wet plugs ...unless it has been grossly overfilled with oil ??

[fixitsan]

I agree with Dandywarhol. The problem sounds like it is running far too rich rather than using huge amounts of oil sufficient to wet plugs ...unless it has been grossly overfilled with oil ??

 

If that's the case a simple test could be to use the old colortune spark plug and observe the flame colour, or ride the bike to a garage with exhaust gas monitoring equipment and get a reading. £20 or £30 would cover  it either way

[Pjkr44]

Thanks for your replies guys (and maybe ladies?)

Smoke looks blue. It's definitely not running too rich, my mechanic tried all of it and I do trust the guy. And I can't ride it well because only after a few miles the sparks clog up with soot and stops working, I can't start the engine after that without changing the spark plugs.

I honestly can't see any other ways than rebuilding the engine or doing a swap or spares/repairs.

[Nog]

Yeah blue smoke is oil

 

An engine swap isn't such a big deal to be honest, certainly easier than a strip.

 

Wouldn't want to do on the road, but if you have a sheltered driveway at least, you should be able to drop the current one out fairly quickly and then get the new one in.

 

I'd say a weekend for the swap is feasible - lots of tea and biscuits to keep energy levels up, and maybe a day or two pencilled extra to sort any tweaks etc out.