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Reviving A -99 Tdm 850


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#1 anda3243

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 10:28 pm

This february i bought a -99 tdm850. I had been looking for a bike for some time. I was mostly looking for africa twins, super tenere and such. But this bike showed up for the right price.

The bake had been standing unused for about one and a half year. The previous ovner claimed that the valve stem seals were bad, he had replaced them, before, but thei had failed again. huh.gif He sad that the bike was smoking quite bad, and thats why he did't use it. Whe were'nt able to start the bike when I bougt it because the battery was flat and it had been standing for a year and a half.

The tires were good, the bike looked ok. And the price was right.

Bike when I bought it.

Posted Image[/IMG]

I will be taking the thing appart and try to get it working

#2 ChrisG

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 05:35 am

Smoke on these is usually the valve stem seals or piston rings. Ring damage is often because someone let it get low on oil (850's do use a fair bit of oil anyway)

900 barrels and head on an 850 engine has been done but is a fair bit of work
http://www.carpe-tdm...=850 900 hybrid

1992 Mk1, 76k miles, Hagon springs, MTC exhaust, 4½ gears Gone now :(
2009 900 abs, 42k miles, Yamaha heated grips, double bubble screen, R&G crash bungs, scottoiler, Autocom, 1500 lumen LED spotlights.

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#3 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 09:33 am

Hi,
I guess you won't know for sure whats causing the smoking until you've got the cylinders and pistons out etc. I'd be surprised if it was only the stem seals though. A rebore and oversized pistons could be on the cards, or it might just be a faulty/blown head gasket.


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#4 dicky1

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 10:48 am

Out of interest do you know what mileage its done?
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#5 anda3243

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 09:07 pm

QUOTE(ChrisG @ Wed 11th May 2011, 07:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Smoke on these is usually the valve stem seals or piston rings. Ring damage is often because someone let it get low on oil (850's do use a fair bit of oil anyway)

900 barrels and head on an 850 engine has been done but is a fair bit of work
http://www.carpe-tdm...=850 900 hybrid


Ok, thank you for the link. I was looking for this info, ended upp comparing both 900 and 850 engine sparepart catalogs tongue.gif . It seems as 900 barels and head will fit.

QUOTE(dicky1 @ Wed 11th May 2011, 12:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Out of interest do you know what mileage its done?


Its done about 50 000 km.

#6 anda3243

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 10:04 pm

Taking the bike home.



After the bike was standing in a warm garage owerningt it started upp easily. This after beeing unused for 1.5 years, great. The bike battery was to week, so I used leadwires and a car battery.
Everything seemed realy good. It run well and rewed fine. It was smoking quite bad tho.

Taking the thing appart.



I emptied the oil. The oil looked brownish.....I was expekting the oil to be black. Why is it so? Rust? unsure.gif


I took the fuel tank of. It looks like an airbox mod, and a K&N type of filter.




Anyone knows of this mod? Is it any good, or should i get an original filter cover? What jeting kan I expect in the carbs?



The slipon is of a make BOS. I have never heard of it. Its quite light an loud. Does anyone know if its any good?
The slipon is attached to the original downpipes with a flexible tube. ohmy.gif This can't be any good. The slipon is still attached to the downpipes on the picture.

Further teardown in the next post........

#7 ChrisG

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Posted 15 May 2011 - 04:17 pm

That's certainly not an airbox modification I've seen before. Not seen anyone use flexi pipe for the exhaust either, how was the can held in place? Presumably the usual single mounting point would let it twist a fair bit without a rigid pipe.

1992 Mk1, 76k miles, Hagon springs, MTC exhaust, 4½ gears Gone now :(
2009 900 abs, 42k miles, Yamaha heated grips, double bubble screen, R&G crash bungs, scottoiler, Autocom, 1500 lumen LED spotlights.

post-1-1152402501.jpgpost-1-1150550726.gifpost-1-1150559830.gif


#8 anda3243

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 08:36 pm

QUOTE(ChrisG @ Sun 15th May 2011, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's certainly not an airbox modification I've seen before. Not seen anyone use flexi pipe for the exhaust either, how was the can held in place? Presumably the usual single mounting point would let it twist a fair bit without a rigid pipe.


Yes the silencer was attached on one bolt and was quite wobly.
I have only seen a flexible pipe on cars. I suspect this to be a cheap universal carbon fibre silencer kit. The flexible pipe allows it to fit many models.

#9 anda3243

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 09:15 pm

Now taking of the carburators, cooler, header pipe, chain and other things that needs to be removed.


How the exhaust flex pipe is attached to header pipes :s

Yes, it is a threaded water pipe joint that is welded in place.

The intake walves when removing carburators. I se no oil leaking in, everything looks clean. The carbs were not fastened properly. I gues that its quite dificult to assemble them into the intake ruppers.

No point to post the picture of other side, they look identical.

Sparkplugs are looking quite dark. Gues the bike is burning some oil. Both plugs looked similar, witch is good.


The exhaust side. Dificult to see, but there is a lot of soot and dirt. Both sides quite similar.

Not many pics between here. But taking the thing apart is easy. I had a friend help me to lift out the motor and forgot to take pics.

The motor separated from bike. I had the workshop manual on the laptop (makes the manual searchable).


Here engine without cylinder head. Cam chain suspended in a wire.
I do not have any pics when taking of the camshafts, cam chain and cylinder head. The barels looked good, many miles left in them.


Edit: and a question. How do I get out all the oil from the engine? When the engine was in bike i removed the oil plug on the bottom of the engine and let about 2 to 3 liters of oil out (comon sense, you do so on most vehicles). Put there is still oil in the oil tank. How do I get it out? Should I remove the oil filter cover?

Edited by anda3243, 26 May 2011 - 09:20 pm.


#10 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 08:01 am


Getting there smile.gif

There's another drain bolt next to the oil filter housing. Looks like you'll need new stem seals, them exhaust valves look exactly the same as mine were. Got some piccies in my bloggerydoodaah smile.gif

Thanks fer posting up !

munching_out.gif

Mk2a 2000 in Silver. Top end Refurb @ 41100 miles, Scottoiler, Renthal Road High Bars, Up & Back Bar Risers, Bellypan, DL650 Handguards, Capt. Picard Bar Ends, House of Henty SS Wheel spacers, New Seat Cover Fitted. 58 MPG !!  Now owned by chrisbee !   Studley's mk2a Bloggerydoodaah !  Photos of my first MK1  Photos of my MK2a  TPLQHCSRSFC No. 1 Fan


#11 Chris B

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 08:31 am

I would replace the rings while you have it striped down this far.

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#12 ChrisG

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 08:36 am

How far are you planning on stripping it? It's worth popping the valves out and checking how well they seal, have a look at the state mine were in about half way down this page http://www.carpe-tdm...t...;blogid=18

Stem seals and piston rings tend to be the biggest causes of oil consumption so well worth doing while you're there if you've the time/equipment/budget.

edit: Just remembered you were talking about fitting a 900 top end so forget that, the 900 barrels are ceramic lined and don't seem to suffer the wear the 850's do.

Edited by ChrisG, 27 May 2011 - 08:38 am.

1992 Mk1, 76k miles, Hagon springs, MTC exhaust, 4½ gears Gone now :(
2009 900 abs, 42k miles, Yamaha heated grips, double bubble screen, R&G crash bungs, scottoiler, Autocom, 1500 lumen LED spotlights.

post-1-1152402501.jpgpost-1-1150550726.gifpost-1-1150559830.gif


#13 anda3243

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 09:41 am

QUOTE(Studley Ramrod @ Fri 27th May 2011, 10:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Getting there smile.gif

There's another drain bolt next to the oil filter housing. Looks like you'll need new stem seals, them exhaust valves look exactly the same as mine were. Got some piccies in my bloggerydoodaah smile.gif

Thanks fer posting up !

munching_out.gif


Thanks for the tip. I will check the drain bolt

The posting is a bit behind the actual work. The previous owner claimed the stem seals were bad, but it's not only the seals, the valve guides feels worn too.

QUOTE(Chris B @ Fri 27th May 2011, 10:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would replace the rings while you have it striped down this far.


I will at least check the condition of the piston rings before I use them. Good tip there.

QUOTE(ChrisG @ Fri 27th May 2011, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How far are you planning on stripping it? It's worth popping the valves out and checking how well they seal, have a look at the state mine were in about half way down this page http://www.carpe-tdm...t...;blogid=18

Stem seals and piston rings tend to be the biggest causes of oil consumption so well worth doing while you're there if you've the time/equipment/budget.

edit: Just remembered you were talking about fitting a 900 top end so forget that, the 900 barrels are ceramic lined and don't seem to suffer the wear the 850's do.


Nice report threre. I saw that you were replacing the bearings for steering. On what milage did you do that?

The posting is draging behind the actual work. My plan from the beginning vas to change the stem seals. Wich means removing the cylinder head, dissasembling it and putting everything together again. But it wasent that easy.

And a question. Is the centrum-centrum distance on carbs on the 850 the same as the centrum-centrum distance of the intakes on the 900?

#14 ChrisG

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 11:05 am

QUOTE(anda3243 @ Sat 28th May 2011, 10:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I saw that you were replacing the bearings for steering. On what milage did you do that?


Not too sure, must have getting on for 60,000 miles. With the front wheel in the air the steering felt fine, but once I had the wheel and forks off I could feel a notch with the steering centered

1992 Mk1, 76k miles, Hagon springs, MTC exhaust, 4½ gears Gone now :(
2009 900 abs, 42k miles, Yamaha heated grips, double bubble screen, R&G crash bungs, scottoiler, Autocom, 1500 lumen LED spotlights.

post-1-1152402501.jpgpost-1-1150550726.gifpost-1-1150559830.gif


#15 anda3243

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 08:35 pm

QUOTE(ChrisG @ Sat 28th May 2011, 01:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not too sure, must have getting on for 60,000 miles. With the front wheel in the air the steering felt fine, but once I had the wheel and forks off I could feel a notch with the steering centered


ah ok, my bike has done half of that so I wont bother changing them.

#16 anda3243

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 12:17 am

The cylinder head

When removing the cylinder head one must first remove the camshafts. When I removed the camshafts I descovered this.


A damaged bearing for the intake camshaft. Notice that the valves are already removed. The picture was taken later.

The camshaft had survived better.


Ceeping parts organized.

Despite this i lost one of the valve collets.

The tool


The cylinder head without valves



With the valves removed i could see two things. The valve stem seals were in good shape. And the exhaust valve stem guides were in a terrible shape.
Now it was a searious top end job, not just replacing a faultly intaled stem seals.

The easiest way out of this is a now cylinder head or engine. I have done a cylinder hed renovation once, and it's not that much fun.
A search on internet resulted in a TDM 900 -03 that had been crashed and should be sold in parts. It had done 21000 km. And this was prety much the only option. The other was an option of buying a used cylinder with damaged camshaft bearing. :/

The 900 bike was crashed and the crankcase was damaged. Se buying the whole engine was only slightly more expensive than buying only cylinder head and cylinders.

The obvios question was, will the 900 engin parts fit on the 850 engine?
I searched for anyone whos made a 900 conversion, but it was hard to find anything. I missed the thread that was presented here earlier.

I found this: https://picasaweb.go...ProjektinKuvat#

Puting a 900 motor in a XTZ supertenere. There is a forum thread somwhere about the build.
I also read quite much about the history of the engine. It seems that the early XTZ engine is the beginning to the 850 and 900 engines.
I only needed the cylinder head, but I didn't know if the 900 head fits on the 850 cylinders. I didn't know if the 900 cylinders could be used on the 850 crankcase.
In the end I ended up comparing the spareparts catalogs for both engines.
I found that bottom end conrod bearings were the same for both engines, knowing that the stroke is the same for both ebgines one could asume that the cylinder would fit. I also found that camchain and one of the tensioners are the same. Camshaft sprockets are the same. Oil pump is the same. Starter motor is the same. And some other parts. I could also see that many parts were the same as the XTZ engines.
I had also learned thet the 900 model had fuel injection instead of carbs, an aluminium frame and some other goods. The 900 engine had 6 gears, some more power, and that the oil consumpsion was reduced. One should use the 900 cylinder barrels with the cylinder head to reduce the oil consuption.

Knowing this I was confident enough to buy the used 900 engine. I also bought turn indicators, but they turned out not to fit.

The primary plan is to instal the whole engine. Use the carbs and som much parts as possible from the 850. But I didn't know how damaged the crankcase would be, and if any mounting points be the same. The 900 model had a new frame, and I knew from looking at pictures that the front brackets were different.

The secundary plan is to use the cylinder head and cylinders only.

One thing that is bothering me now is the ignition system. How different are they. The 900 model has fuel injection, but does ut affect the ignition?

#17 ChrisG

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 09:53 am

I think TonyDevil had a bit of a look at the idea of fitting a 900 engine in a Mk1 frame, and reckoned it would fit with a some different front engine brackets, and found some photos of someone who'd fitted a 900 engine in something else, but can't remember if it was a Super Tenere or a TRX. The TRX boys do a fair bit of tuning, and the XTZ folks have plenty of experience of fitting 850 engines in the 750 frame, dunno if anyones tried a 900 yet, they've both got reasonably active forums so may well be worth a look too.

http://www.trx850.mo...niac.net/forum/

http://www.super-tenere.net/

It certainly looks like you're having fun good.gif

Edited by ChrisG, 03 June 2011 - 09:55 am.

1992 Mk1, 76k miles, Hagon springs, MTC exhaust, 4½ gears Gone now :(
2009 900 abs, 42k miles, Yamaha heated grips, double bubble screen, R&G crash bungs, scottoiler, Autocom, 1500 lumen LED spotlights.

post-1-1152402501.jpgpost-1-1150550726.gifpost-1-1150559830.gif


#18 anda3243

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 04:14 pm

The work has been going on. The engine is in the bike and the first attemts to start are done. It was as ChrisG wrote, new front motor brackets were needed, but that was not the only part that nedded to be altered.
This guy has been an insperation for me
https://picasaweb.go...ZProjektinKuvat

And yes, it is the same front sprocket spline on newer Honda cbr rr models, older Honda Boldor models and the TDM 900. tongue.gif Front sprocket will fit, but the alignement with the chain may not be right. Can be shimsed right with washers thoThe tdm 850 has a smaller spline.

I will try to post some updates on the work thats done.

I have two questions.
How does the 900 ignition system work? On 900 there are 8 knobs (if i remember right) with even pith on the flywheel, the 850 has 3 smaller and one bigger, with 90 deg pitch. The pickup unit in the generator cover is identical for both models. The 900 model also has a smaller sensor on the exhaust camshaft. Is the 900 ignition system fully digital with 8 knobs on the flywheel for measuring engine speed, and the camshaft sensor for indexing?

Does anyone know if the 850 flywheel fits on the 900? The 900 alternator is wider an probably more powerfull. The crankshafts for 900 and 850 does not have the same part number.

The crankshafts for 900 and 850 does not have the same part number. Does anyone know what differs?

Does anyone have two spark plug caps for TDM 900 to sell?

Thanks

Edited by anda3243, 03 August 2011 - 04:19 pm.


#19 anda3243

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 04:22 pm

One more thing. Does the tdm model have a oil pressure warning light? I can't find the light or the sensor. Why is that so? The 900 model has a oil level sensor in the oil tank, but, thats not the same thing.

//A

#20 anda3243

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 10:11 pm

Continuing the buildt thread.

And here is the new engine. It has done 21 000 km and comes from a crashed bike. I bought only the engine, no wireing harness or injection stuff.






The crankcase on this motor was damaged, I knew this. The whole engine was only a little more expensive than the cylinder barrels and head only.
The water pump and oil pump cover took the hit. The crankcase was damaged at one of the water pump mounts.






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