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Stopping In The Wet


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#1 apw99

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 10:16 pm

Hi - I'm back riding a few years now but I still have questions in my head about emergency stops in the wet. Now, I know tires have improved over the years and the TDMs brakes are well good enough for me. However, I would be interested in hearing about experienced riders views of emergency stops in the wet. For example, it's difficult enough to practice this as every time you brake hard in the wet you run the risk of going under...so how did you gain experience and become confident at stopping in the wet? Or do you ever??
Thx, APW

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#2 drumwrecker

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 11:43 pm

Never had to really put it to the test, must put it on my practice list along with slow riding. Now where is that empty car park.
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#3 newstu

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 12:33 am

I practice mine regularly upon the advice of a very very good rider i know who does the same- have done since I got back into biking.

Running the risk of going under? hmmm, shouldn't do in a controlled stop esp. when you know its coming. Only really stamping on the back will cause you problems and you will have to really really be going silly to lose the front in a practice situation.

My advice (for what its worth) would be to find yourself a decent bit of tarmac ground such as a car park that is free from potholes, excessive amounts of grit or shale and have a little ride around to see if you can see anything nasty like diesel (rainbow coloured in light when wet) Set yourself two points, one at which you want to start braking and then a target point at which you want to have come to a stop. Start off really easy and gradually bring the points closer and increase your approach speed as you get more confident and feel where the limits of grip and control are. Try to stay relaxed and keep your arms slightly bent at the elbows. The idea of practising an emergency stop this way that it will become second nature to do it right in an a hurry. The front brakes on a TDM are superb and give great feedback, if they will pull up an R1 without problems then you sure as hell wont have any worries with a TDM!

Alternatively, borrow an LC for a week and then you will think that you have WSB brakes!!!!! (I am asking Santa for an anchor for xmas!)
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#4 harvey krumpet

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 12:49 am

QUOTE(apw99 @ Wed 17th Nov 2010, 11:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi - I'm back riding a few years now but I still have questions in my head about emergency stops in the wet. Now, I know tires have improved over the years and the TDMs brakes are well good enough for me. However, I would be interested in hearing about experienced riders views of emergency stops in the wet. For example, it's difficult enough to practice this as every time you brake hard in the wet you run the risk of going under...so how did you gain experience and become confident at stopping in the wet? Or do you ever??
Thx, APW


Probably like most riders by necessity, the last time was on the A69, Newcastle to Carlisle. It was raining that hard Salmon were swimming across the road. A truck turned in front of me & I had to give it the big squeeze & turn. Still don't know how I stayed up right but I do love Bridgestones since then.
I learned to ride off road which teaches you to load the forks & get your body weight central before really braking hard on a slippery surface. Wet tarmac does not worry me to much, I focus on riding smoother but still maintain the same pace. It's the white lines, tar overbanding etc which are really treacherous in the rain & damp as opposed to wet roads are pants. You can lock the front just as easy in the dry as the wet if you really try, the limit is where you find it regardless of weather. I think the trick is to be smooth, balanced & confident with the rear & front brakes, you can't guess how much grip you have, you have to focus on avoiding the hazard & try to anticipate what the bike will do. An upright lock up normally stays upright if you have the reflexes & centered balance to release the lever pressure slightly like ABS, any kind of lean & your better off having the back lock up & tightening the turn, the front just goes, ciao, bye.
If you practice heavy braking in the dry on different surfaces you will develop a feel for weight transfer, suspension loading etc. It applies exactly the same in the wet. Practice at slow speed, don't clench the bars when you brake otherwise if the front doe's lock you hang onto the brake & have a tumble also practice using front & rear brakes together, the aim is to try & keep the bike level maximising your grip.
In an emergency you want that subconscious feel to kick in under maximum braking while your brain looks for the gap. If your nervous of wet roads you will not be smooth & confident, purely psychological.
Practice Grasshopper
Best of all, always ride in space, anticipate & always be able to stop in the distance that you can see to be clear. Good riding minimises those trouser staining moments & hopefully your awareness is such that you can react instantly & correctly should you have to.
If I'm not 100% focused I don't ride, old age is getting me,

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#5 celticbiker

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 01:02 am

If it's theory you are after it goes something like this,
Grabbing a hand full of front brake in the wet will lock the wheel and cause aqua planing because the braking force will take effect before the forks have had time to compress and transfere the weight to the front tyre.
To avoid this the idea is to apply the front brake gradually over about 1.5 seconds allowing the weight to transfere and the front tyre to cut through the water and down to the road surface, at this point you can then apply the rear brake to hep stabalise the bike aswell as applying more front.
It's a good idea to practice this in the dry first to get a feel for how the weight trasferes on you particular set up.
Practicing in the wet can indeed be a bit of a gamble but if you start on a slight incline the chances of going down are seriously reduced, when you are confident move to a flat road and when you feel ready move on to a downhill section.
Also, I usually drop the front tyre pressure by about 3psi when it's raining just to allow the tyre to flatten ouy a bit more under braking and present a bit more surface area to the road.

Edited by celticbiker, 18 November 2010 - 01:04 am.




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#6 harvey krumpet

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 02:07 am

QUOTE(celticbiker @ Thu 18th Nov 2010, 02:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Practicing in the wet can indeed be a bit of a gamble but if you start on a slight incline the chances of going down are seriously reduced, when you are confident move to a flat road and when you feel ready move on to a downhill section.


I've read screeds on this subject but that is the first time I have come across this veritable pearl of wisdom. yu.gif

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#7 celticbiker

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 04:58 am

Yeh......
Tis not a fish all.
Just personal experience and observation.



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#8 apw99

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 10:07 am

These are great tips and many thanks. I do practice frequently in the dry and usually try to give it some rear brake to 'squat' the bike and then heavier on the front while at the same time releasing the rear as the front coming on causes the rear to lighten up so less rear will avoid a rear lock-up. This works great and anytime I have needed to brake it has come naturally. The wet I am more cautious and tend to leave much more space as Harvey says. However - I now resolve to get some progressive practice in the wet just to build that confidence. Thanks guys,
APW

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#9 stu

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 04:19 pm

Watch out for ads for panels in the 'wanted' section lads wink.gif

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#10 muddy

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 04:46 pm

QUOTE(stu @ Thu 18th Nov 2010, 04:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Watch out for ads for panels in the 'wanted' section lads wink.gif


I do, I do. None have come up yet.

I was never very confident in the wet, but now I'm as twitchy as hell when it rains. I don't know what I can do to develop wet riding confidence really. I'm forever scanning the road for oil splashes and take roundabouts and corners as if I'm about to get eaten up by bend dwelling trogs.

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#11 dicky1

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 05:39 pm

Hi APW there's a lot of good advice in the above replys, 2 bits of advice I would give are 1) always try and brake in a straight line so that any likely skid is controllable & less likely to have you off & 2)anticipate that you may occaisionally skid (gravel, mud, oil, ice etc) and be prepared to quickly ease of the brakes & re-apply them.

Edited by dicky1, 18 November 2010 - 05:40 pm.

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#12 harvey krumpet

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 09:31 pm

QUOTE(muddy @ Thu 18th Nov 2010, 05:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I do, I do. None have come up yet.

I was never very confident in the wet, but now I'm as twitchy as hell when it rains. I don't know what I can do to develop wet riding confidence really. I'm forever scanning the road for oil splashes and take roundabouts and corners as if I'm about to get eaten up by bend dwelling trogs.


I used to be the same, made myself feel like I was riding on ice with my eyeballs pressed up against the visor trying to see the future. A few heavy braking & acceleration incidents on wet roads caused me to expect the worst but I just discovered a lot more grip than expected. I also realised despite how I felt mentally & the increased focus on smoothness & perceived lack of grip I was still riding at the same speed with no issues at all & still maintaining a healthy safety margin. My focus now is on what I know will be slippy, as you say oil splashes, areas on the road where traffic stands, accelerates & brakes, painted lines, mud etc. I've come to enjoy riding in the rain with extra concentration required to still ride well.

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#13 Fernihough

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 08:34 pm

wifgeni.gif

QUOTE(harvey krumpet @ Thu 18th Nov 2010, 12:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Probably like most riders by necessity, the last time was on the A69, Newcastle to Carlisle. It was raining that hard Salmon were swimming across the road. A truck turned in front of me & I had to give it the big squeeze & turn. Still don't know how I stayed up right but I do love Bridgestones since then.
I learned to ride off road which teaches you to load the forks & get your body weight central before really braking hard on a slippery surface. Wet tarmac does not worry me to much, I focus on riding smoother but still maintain the same pace. It's the white lines, tar overbanding etc which are really treacherous in the rain & damp as opposed to wet roads are pants. You can lock the front just as easy in the dry as the wet if you really try, the limit is where you find it regardless of weather. I think the trick is to be smooth, balanced & confident with the rear & front brakes, you can't guess how much grip you have, you have to focus on avoiding the hazard & try to anticipate what the bike will do. An upright lock up normally stays upright if you have the reflexes & centered balance to release the lever pressure slightly like ABS, any kind of lean & your better off having the back lock up & tightening the turn, the front just goes, ciao, bye.
If you practice heavy braking in the dry on different surfaces you will develop a feel for weight transfer, suspension loading etc. It applies exactly the same in the wet. Practice at slow speed, don't clench the bars when you brake otherwise if the front doe's lock you hang onto the brake & have a tumble also practice using front & rear brakes together, the aim is to try & keep the bike level maximising your grip.
In an emergency you want that subconscious feel to kick in under maximum braking while your brain looks for the gap. If your nervous of wet roads you will not be smooth & confident, purely psychological.
Practice Grasshopper
Best of all, always ride in space, anticipate & always be able to stop in the distance that you can see to be clear. Good riding minimises those trouser staining moments & hopefully your awareness is such that you can react instantly & correctly should you have to.
If I'm not 100% focused I don't ride, old age is getting me,


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#14 FDM

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 09:43 pm

Some really interesting stuff there people, I could do with some practise myself. Just before I left Holland I had an off on a slow roundabout with my Trophy 1200. As i have not done a lot of riding since my confidence is still lacking. I did enjoy the few spins I had on my first TDM as the style of the bike really suits my tall frame I suppose. Most of what you guys describe when it comes to braking hard takes me back to my first lessons back in Holland. Funny how you forget what you were thought and had to perform during the test.
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#15 apw99

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 10:08 pm

Thanks for all the replies lads (with the exception of Stu of course )

So I suppose the natural progression of this topic is how effective is the ABS? I have it on the car and it is brilliant, although I still find it hard to plant the brakes with the reassurance that the ABS will kick in if needed. But how does the ABS feel on a bike when there is perhaps some lean involved as well? My 4TX has only 10k miles up so I have many moons left in it but I think the next steed will be an ABS model. Has anyone any pearls on ABS?
Cheer again,
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#16 AliG

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 11:07 pm

QUOTE(apw99 @ Mon 22nd Nov 2010, 10:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks for all the replies lads (with the exception of Stu of course )

So I suppose the natural progression of this topic is how effective is the ABS? I have it on the car and it is brilliant, although I still find it hard to plant the brakes with the reassurance that the ABS will kick in if needed. But how does the ABS feel on a bike when there is perhaps some lean involved as well? My 4TX has only 10k miles up so I have many moons left in it but I think the next steed will be an ABS model. Has anyone any pearls on ABS?
Cheer again,
APW

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#17 drumwrecker

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 12:08 am

All I know is the ABS kicks in pretty early when I am using the back brake with downward gear changes at speed, and at very slow speed on the front when I got on some dust at a junction.
I also understand it is supposed the lengthen the stopping distnce a bit but I suppose it increases the chances of stying upright as well.
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#18 harvey krumpet

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 01:45 am

Most of what I have read about ABS implies that a very good rider will still brake quicker in a straight line but I would rather have ABS if I was breaking over something slippy or had to steer under heavy braking. I would rather be warned by pulsing brakes than the sensation of rolling on tarmac. I just read somewhere that the EU want to make ABS compulsory & un-switchable on all bikes over 100cc by 2017. Hmmmm.

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#19 catsbum

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 04:38 am

QUOTE(muddy @ Thu 18th Nov 2010, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I do, I do. None have come up yet.

I was never very confident in the wet, but now I'm as twitchy as hell when it rains. I don't know what I can do to develop wet riding confidence really. I'm forever scanning the road for oil splashes and take roundabouts and corners as if I'm about to get eaten up by bend dwelling trogs.


Yesterday morning I dodged and followed diesel spillage for around 4 miles, on soaking wet roads. You can normally smell it before you see it, this occasion I could clearly see it, It's scary shit. I was like a dog on Roller Skates.

And simply avoid braking when near Derv/wet tarmac as there is no escape.
cats

#20 whichwaywasit

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Posted 23 November 2010 - 07:56 am

Touching the brakes on a wet corner is probably not the way to go, abs or not. I can get wary (wrote timid but made me look to much like a girl) in the wet on bends, I suspect anybody who doesn't is a nutter. I tend to accelerate on the straight more than I would in relaxed dry riding to gain a little distance on the car behind. This allows me the mental comfort to back off and tip toe around the corner if I feel I need to without the pressure of a car up my rear. I try to never get directly in line with the vehicle ahead, so I can flick away easy if it breaks hard. Its boring to say, but only a fool breaks the two second rule (well, in the wet anyhow, oops sorry, no pun intended)


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