22 replies to this topic

[Hawmaw]

Yet another way of working it up the motorist/motorcyclist.

Kirsty Walker reports in yesterdays Daily Mail that there is a proposal on the table to cut the speed limit on country roads in the UK to 30 or 40 mph.

Apparently two thirds of accidents happen on country roads.

We might as well all go out and buy cruisers and sit back and enjoy the ride!!

[stu]

Yet another way of working it up the motorist/motorcyclist.

Kirsty Walker reports in yesterdays Daily Mail that there is a proposal on the table to cut the speed limit on country roads in the UK to 30 or 40 mph.

Apparently two thirds of accidents happen on country roads.

We might as well all go out and buy cruisers and sit back and enjoy the ride!!

Ah, the Mail..... must be true so. Wait 'til they decide bikers are socialists and pro-Europe

[Difflock]

ACK! NOOOOOOOO! FFS!

What about getting the farmers to have working lights on their vehicles, visible signals to other road users and a bit more road sense etc....

I tell you what, why don't we all drive/ride around at 20 mph? That way no one dies if you hit them,

Diff.

[Readmarx]

This was on Radio 4 on Monday morning. No speeds were mentioned, but I assumed it meant 60 & 70mph's down to 60's & 50's.... Make's no sense to me as it's driver error, not speed that's responsible for any accident. Going slower would only give most car drivers time to end their call, put down their book, get off of the secretary, etc before crashing. Have they cured people walking into each other on the street yet? But look at it logically, what does it mean? I rarely ride at the limit unless I'm in town or going through a village and it's been years since I was caught. I always ride faster than the majority of other road users and ride according to conditions, visability, situations, etc. If they wanna drop the limit for Mr & Mrs car numpty, f*ck 'em, do it. I'll slow down when I'm stopped by a cop or when the bastards legislate spyware/GPS into every EFI system on the planet. Then I'll buy me a microlight and start taking my morning constitution over MP's homes, council chambers and dive bombing every car drivin' c*nt left on the planet for killing the thing I love most. It'll take Baron Von f*ckin' Richoffen to stop me

[wicklamulla]

This was on Radio 4 on Monday morning. No speeds were mentioned, but I assumed it meant 60 & 70mph's down to 60's & 50's.... Make's no sense to me as it's driver error, not speed that's responsible for any accident. Going slower would only give most car drivers time to end their call, put down their book, get off of the secretary, etc before crashing. Have they cured people walking into each other on the street yet? But look at it logically, what does it mean? I rarely ride at the limit unless I'm in town or going through a village and it's been years since I was caught. I always ride faster than the majority of other road users and ride according to conditions, visability, situations, etc. If they wanna drop the limit for Mr & Mrs car numpty, f*ck 'em, do it. I'll slow down when I'm stopped by a cop or when the bastards legislate spyware/GPS into every EFI system on the planet. Then I'll buy me a microlight and start taking my morning constitution over MP's homes, council chambers and dive bombing every car drivin' c*nt left on the planet for killing the thing I love most. It'll take Baron Von f*ckin' Richoffen to stop me

woooow hoooooooooooo i heard the same report on Radio 4 as you Ready and i too assumed it was a reduction of the 60's & 70's, so we gorra wait and see i suppose.

[Lerk]

Did anyone see the bike in MCN with the GPS Speed Restrictor installed? An expert told the Undergraduate who designed it, he thought it was dangerous...
...all the more reason to install one in every vehicle then! While they're at it, best bubblewrap anything within 50yds of any paved road surface, including pheasants, hedgehogs, rabbits and chavs!


LERK

[TonyDevil]

top rant well placed argument

Did anyone see the bike in MCN with the GPS Speed Restrictor installed? An expert told the Undergraduate who designed it, he thought it was dangerous...
...all the more reason to install one in every vehicle then! While they're at it, best bubblewrap anything within 50yds of any paved road surface, including pheasants, hedgehogs, rabbits and chavs!
LERK

the new sports game show brought to you on channel five "bubblewrap the chav"
now that i would pay to play....

[Big Bird]

.... cut the speed limit on country roads in the UK to 30 or 40 mph.

Here the speed limit on the majority of country roads is 100km/h (60mph). These roads usually have no police presence (nearest town can be over 50km away), so you can pretty much do what you want speed wise. However, the speed limit through a country town (and for a km or 2 either side) is often only 50km/h (30mph). This lower limit is usually policed and policed with aggression.

At least we Aussies have the benefit of only encountering towns every half hour or so, sometimes towns are over an hour apart (and that's travelling at a fair cracking pace too). For you lot, with all your towns so close together, you'd never make it out of a 30mph town zone before entering the 30 zone of another town.

[laughin in a windstorm]

This was on Radio 4 on Monday morning. No speeds were mentioned, but I assumed it meant 60 & 70mph's down to 60's & 50's.... Make's no sense to me as it's driver error, not speed that's responsible for any accident. Going slower would only give most car drivers time to end their call, put down their book, get off of the secretary, etc before crashing. Have they cured people walking into each other on the street yet? But look at it logically, what does it mean? I rarely ride at the limit unless I'm in town or going through a village and it's been years since I was caught. I always ride faster than the majority of other road users and ride according to conditions, visability, situations, etc. If they wanna drop the limit for Mr & Mrs car numpty, f*ck 'em, do it. I'll slow down when I'm stopped by a cop or when the bastards legislate spyware/GPS into every EFI system on the planet. Then I'll buy me a microlight and start taking my morning constitution over MP's homes, council chambers and dive bombing every car drivin' c*nt left on the planet for killing the thing I love most. It'll take Baron Von f*ckin' Richoffen to stop me

this is similar to my thoughts apart from one good point that had never occurred to me, the bit about people walking into each other on the pavements you can't go much slower than that.

top rant well placed argument

the new sports game show brought to you on channel five "bubblewrap the chav"
now that i would pay to play....

this would be a good game and you could add a bit to this once they are completely wrapped in the way of helping them breathe a little bit, not too much though, throw darts at them to slowly pop the bubbles and make way for some air

[Nosaj]

woooow hoooooooooooo i heard the same report on Radio 4 as you Ready and i too assumed it was a reduction of the 60's & 70's, so we gorra wait and see i suppose.

Radio 4 ?????? you'll all be buying bmws next

[stu]

This was on Radio 4 on Monday morning. No speeds were mentioned, but I assumed it meant 60 & 70mph's down to 60's & 50's.... Make's no sense to me as it's driver error, not speed that's responsible for any accident. Going slower would only give most car drivers time to end their call, put down their book, get off of the secretary, etc before crashing. Have they cured people walking into each other on the street yet? But look at it logically, what does it mean? I rarely ride at the limit unless I'm in town or going through a village and it's been years since I was caught. I always ride faster than the majority of other road users and ride according to conditions, visability, situations, etc. If they wanna drop the limit for Mr & Mrs car numpty, f*ck 'em, do it. I'll slow down when I'm stopped by a cop or when the bastards legislate spyware/GPS into every EFI system on the planet. Then I'll buy me a microlight and start taking my morning constitution over MP's homes, council chambers and dive bombing every car drivin' c*nt left on the planet for killing the thing I love most. It'll take Baron Von f*ckin' Richoffen to stop me

Okay, so it's driver error, but if you always ride faster than the majority of other road users, how can you also ride according to conditions, visability, situations, etc. There's an immediate contradiction. How do you compensate for their errors, even presuming you don't make any? The risk is your speed variation from other traffic, not your actual speed (which is why travelling too slow is also a risk )
If the over 3200 road deaths in the UK in 2005 had died in air crashes there would be an outcry and Something Would be Done. On the road, cameras aren't working, road safety campaigns aren't working, drivers aren't wising up and taking responsibility for themselves. So why not let them keep crashing, but just not kill each other - Whatever the cause of the crash, an impact at higher speed has more energy and does more damage. The simplistic solution is to reduce speed and make crashes survivable. What have all the recent 'advances' in car safety been about? Airbags, side impact bars, laminated windscreens, even the new Jaguar 'pedestrian friendly' pop-up bonnet? They are about surviving a crash not avoiding one. Drivers/riders won't be educated, so in effect they are already being bubble-wrapped.
The newer driver education initiatives focus not on skills but on attitude and behaviour. You don't have to be an experienced rider to be a safe one, but you can be a skilled one and still crash if you go out with the wrong attitude. So to paraphrase, although the problem may be interpreted differently; the point is, to change it.

[Difflock]

The simplistic solution is to reduce speed and make crashes survivable.

Brilliant road sign stu! sponsored by Frankie & Vinnie no doubt. You know those two stereotypical gansters with the New York accents ba da bing.

As I said - let's all drive around at 20 mph then no one dies m'kay?

Regarding riding to the conditions - I'm scared of leaning over too much in the wet for obvious reasons. So, there I am, not trying, in the wet, riding home down the usual B road in the countryside... YET I'm still catching cars because they seem to be even more scared than me of the rain...

What's the similarity between a Slinky spring and a chav? Both bloody useless, but great fun to watch when you push them downstairs..

Diff.

[Readmarx]

I don't hold with the contradiction, Stu. I approach other road users and slow to their speed keeping a safe (braking) distance and wait for oncoming traffic to pass. Obviously I scan for junctions, gates, parked vehicles, pedestrians, animals, etc before making the manoeuvre and whilst making it. If it's safer to proceed at a higher speed level than the marked limit it must be safe for me to do so given the limit is based primarily on 1950's arbitrary limits and not scientific quantification of every modern vehicles braking, acceleration, physical dynamics, plus the road surface, available grip, rider/driver mental condition, etc. I make these calculations on a second by second basis as I assess my passage through the world on my machine. I treat every other road user like the psychotic, blind numpties the small majority are and give them every benefit of all the doubt I can conceive that they'll probably try and kill me as I pass them... I pass them with care before climbing to cruising altitude/airspeed again. So far, so good.

Interesting point about 3500 dead, though. The US is currently rampaging around the world with us clinging to its backside for the death of 3500 in 2001. US citizens murder 25 - 30,000 of each other with firearms each year yet no war against gun murderers, unless they have guns and are "tourists" (say it with a Bush Texas accent) from Tie-rack.

What's John Smiths and sex in a canoe got in common then? They're both f*cking close to water....

[stu]

If it's safer to proceed at a higher speed level than the marked limit it must be safe for me to do so given the limit is based primarily on 1950's arbitrary limits and not scientific quantification of every modern vehicles braking, acceleration, physical dynamics, plus the road surface, available grip, rider/driver mental condition, etc. I make these calculations on a second by second basis as I assess my passage through the world on my machine.

That's nice, but in 1950 there wasn't a speed limit.
The 70 mph limit was not introduced until 1965, before that it was unlimited outside towns.
Anyway, the improvements you quote are counterbalanced by increases in vehicle numbers and traffic density.
I'd be the first to agree with you that unrealistic limits are counterproductive; in Ireland the rural speed limit was changed from 60 mph to 80 kph, overnight making most prudent road users outlaws. What benefit was achieved?
This is interesting: The theory is that traffic laws that reflect the behavior of the majority of motorists may have better compliance than laws that arbitrarily criminalize the majority of motorists and encourage violations. The latter kinds of laws lack public support and often fail to bring about desirable changes in driving behavior. An example is the federally mandated 55 mph (90 km/h) speed limit that was scrapped in part because of notoriously low compliance.
Traffic engineers observe that the majority of drivers drive in a safe and reasonable manner, as demonstrated by consistently favorable driving records. Studies have shown crash rates are lowest at around the 85th percentile. Vehicles traveling over the 85th percentile speed (or faster than the flow of traffic) have a significantly higher crash risk than vehicles traveling around or modestly below this speed.


I wish I had your confidence that no-one could catch me out

Reason has always existed, but not always in a reasonable form

[Readmarx]

Interesting. Sort the link though? Stu, I can't get onto it.

It was 65 was it? I'll remember that for the next pub quiz

Sounds reasonable that the laws used to be those that The Island still has. It's pretty much how I ride..... Maybe I should grow my hair and get some Loon Pants?
And, I can understand that enacting laws to restrict on the basis of increased density contains some logic, though the existence of reason here I would contest is unreasonable. Enacting laws on the basis of custom is the first step to a democracy though I can't imagine ours ever deigning to allow us to enact an opinion on the way we are governed. Your synopsis of the 85th percentile is interesting. Though I must admit to being baffled if the conclusion exclusively dictates that all faster vehicles are accident prone as it would negate any concept of safe overtaking or possibility of being trained to ROSPA Gold or Diplomatic Protection Squad standards since both are redundant when faced with slower road users. Maybe I'm being pendantic/semantic about this point? I believe that my crash record, points on my licence, age, experience and 10 years protected no claims point to someone reasonably safe. If we agree that accidents are caused by driver error and not speed per se, then if a rider has a higher level of ability than average is he not therefore able to enjoy travel at a higher speed once he has negotiated slower road users (at speeds slightly higher than them) and fill his heart with joy?

Just for the record I'm not claiming that ET with his ROSPA Bronze is affiliated in any way with any armed or dangerous security force.

[tdm850rider]

When I click the link I get a search page... which of the 1.15 Billion results am I supposed to click?

[laughin in a windstorm]

I'll go slow if I feel it is of some good for either, pedestrians, other road users or myself and quite often that will be below the speed limit, if I feel I can get away with going fast on some roads, that's fast as in above an existing speed limit then I'll do it, I always have and I always will, I haven't had an incident with another vehicle on the road that was my fault since 1979 when I was seventeen, I haven't had any incidents with other road users which was not my fault since 1984, and that was when I was stopped at a red light at a pedestrian crossing and a car driver ran into the back of me (my 'zero' speed involved me in an accident, if I broke the law and ran a red light I would've been safer), if I get caught for speeding then I'll accept my punishment and just be angry at myself for getting caught, not the authorities for doing their jobs, I do respect Police officers but not all of the laws they have to enforce, I don't believe anybody who says they never speed, unless I know they only ever use one of those scooters you get from the supermarkets or free in packets of cornflakes or something.
Too much going slow would probably have a knock on effect where next day deliveries could take a week, a Politicians extremely urgent top secret document that has to be hand delivered in half an hour which is only possible by motorcycle courier, - ''sorry sir but with yesterdays speed limit it would've been possible to get it there in ten minutes, but todays speed limits and 'enforcement' cameras meant a bigger build up in traffic and I didn't want to risk my licence so it took 45 minutes'', ''they said you're fired''.

[stu]

Aye, 1965 - no speed limits, no helmet law and no restriction on learner riders as to the bikes they rode. Wonder what effect that would have on KSI rates now?

Link works for me - try http://en.wikipedia....percentile_rule
(it's not my synopsis )

I can't say I never exceed the speed limit - my philosophy would be similar to laffin and Karl's, by the sound of it. My post was as devil's advocate on what the authorities may have considered when they took a particular tack with road safety.

Overtaking is a high(er) risk activity. That's why advanced training suggests considering whether it is necessary, as well as legal, safe etc.
Police standards are different - (Isn't that SEG, not DPS?) but Advanced riding is about being in the right place at the right time, in the correct gear for the speed, and progressing unobtrusively. S'not all about overtaking and high speed.
Interesting that you mention RoSPA of all people - they support speed cameras, which are a blunt instrument which do nothing to correct bad driving at less than the posted speed limit. (and it's possible to be at an inappropriate speed at less than the limit.... as well as at a 'safe' speed in excess of the limit).

And yes, if we agree that crashes (not 'accidents') are caused by driver error, it's not always obvious which driver is gonna cause the error that gets you. Anticipation is based on predictions based on previously observed behaviour - with drunk and/or drugged drivers, for example, the behaviour is less predictable.


Good thread

[Guinness]

speedcameras = money makers
there are collisions in traffic jams ffs ... what are they traveling at ? 10kmh?

in belgium the reason stated government for lowered speed limits was:
to reduce polution ...
loada bollox

lower speed, lower gear, same revs : just takes you longer = more polution
and you have to slow down and speed up again every few hundred meters coz of the traffic lights/speedbumps/speedtraps/potholes