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Tdm900 9Er Not Charging :(


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#1 Stiggy

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 11:58 am

Hi all,

 

My trusty 9er left me stranded in London the other night with a dead battery. I keep it on a conditioner overnight (especially in cold weather) and had started bright as a button that morning - but come the evening, click-click-click etc.

 

Managed to get it to a local bike shop for a jump start, but no dice. The mechanic noted that one of the battery pole tabs had bust (this was a red herring), so new battery time. They had one fortunately, but being wet cell they had to charge overnight. So train home and collect next day.

 

Which I did and all good. Rode home (50miles) and as I was about a mile away from reaching it, I noticed ABS light come on, then go off? Then dash display dimmed and noticed lights were dim too - uh-oh. Managed to get home (just) and killed engine, knowing that it wouldnt' re-start. It didn't!

 

So, concluded charge system was the real cause - which explains why it started so readily in the morning, but then not in the evening (the commute effectively was being run from the battery so killed it along the way).

 

So I set to work this morning to see what the problem was. Except, metering the battery from first start showed 14.5V?!? Bear in mind engine was stone cold at this point after -2 degrees last night. Odd I thought, so continued to check and all seemed fine. I left it a while but thought - nah, that can't be right. So went out again to make some more checks. Engine was warm by this time from starting/stopping - but interestingly bike was no longer charging!? I gather this can happen with a dodgy stator where it works cold, but not hot - thermal expansion making short I guess?

 

So, thanks to knowledgeable folks here, I've just been out fault finding. I think it's the stator - but wanted a second opinion before pulling it just in case it could be the reg/rec?

 

So here's what I've done, following the Electro Sport fault finding chart kindly posted by others and can be found here: http://www.electrosp...ing-diagram.pdf

 

Checked battery voltage - obviously not charging.

 

Checked reg/rec - this has 3 white wires entering from the stator and a second connector with red/black wires.

 

Engine idled, black multimeter lead to battery +, red multimedia lead to red output wire of r/r - got -0.2V (so less than 0.2V according to troubleshooting chart)

 

Then connected red multimeter lead to battery - and black multimeter lead to black/negative output of r/r - got -0.08V (so less than 0.2V according to troubleshooting chart)

 

Then onto part 'B' of the flowchart....

 

r/r only has 2 wires out of it (red and black) so onto stator check.

 

Measured resistance across the wires using a 200ohm range on the multimeter:

1&2 - 0.8ohmsm

1&3 1.2ohms

2&3 0.6ohms

- so not very matched - but all within the range in the flowchart (within 0.5 to 2.0ohms) - however, service manual states resistance for stator on a 9er should be 0.18 to 0.28 ohms ?

 

So, checked continuity between white wires to earth. None appear to have gone to ground?

 

Finally checked AC voltage between the wires:

1&2 3.3V

1&3 5.8V

2+3 3.4V

 

I seem to recall that this should be about 50V (not sure if this is for an 850 or a 9er though).

 

 

So, I guess I'm concluding it's the stator - unless anyone can tell me anything else I can check???

 

 

Great if someone could confirm soonest as I need the bike for work and reluctant to strip in case I'm pulling the wrong parts!!

 

Ta :)

 

Main fuse all OK - checked for continuity with a tester to be sure.


PS - I tried to call Robin Williams in Teignmoth for a rewind, but number is unobtainable? Does anyone have an updated contact number for him they could post or PM me?



#2 celticbiker

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 01:31 pm

Interesting about Robin, I'll look into it.
Does sound like the stator has gone, there is another thread on here somewhere that has concluded that a stator off one of the 850's will fit and work and are more readily available.



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#3 fixitsan

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 02:36 pm

Sounds like shorting within each winding  to themselves, most likely a stator failure.


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#4 Stiggy

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 07:10 pm

Hi chaps - I was hoping you'd both post as I know you've trodden this path before :)

 

OK, so after posting I concluded it was the stator. As luck would have it (the only bit I've had) after calling them it turned out that Electrex World are only 3 miles from home! Whilst they don't stock a TDM900 replacement, they do have 850 equivalents and I know from other posters that this fits and works (but more on this in a bit). A TDM850 is a G7 stator from there by the way.

 

But the job fought me all the way :(

 

First, one of the captive nuts in the sprocket cover had stripped, so the bolt just spun :( Had to drill the cap off to remove.

 

The rest of the bolts were OK, until I came to the ones that hold the sensor in. Just like Guest_celticbiker_* in the how to, the first one came out, but was reluctant, the second snapped the allen key head off in the head of the bolt!!!! 

 

After futile attempts at home to remove, I decided to dash to Electrex World to get the stator, then worry about the bolt after. The people there couldn't have been more helpful! I took the cover with the stator still in it and despite being covered in oil and gack, they were happy to try to get a match. The challenge was not being able to get the stator out. It was notably thicker than that from the 850 - but this has been covered elsewhere on here.

 

Anyway, re the bolt, first they recommended a mechanic in a unit next door - but despite various tools/extractors it wouldn't budge. Then the plan seemed to be to machine it off, but the guy at Electrex couldn't commit to doing it as the boss (Pete) was out. Luckily there was an engineering shop on the same estate. The guy was busy and said it would take a while, so I waited at Electrex and they kindly gave me a coffee whilst I waited. 50 minutes later it still wasn't done - grrr. However, whilst waiting the boss came back and, being from a background in bike breaking, recommended trying to chisel it to get it to turn. We made our way to the workshop and found an old wood chisel - between the two of us and a load of whacking, finally it budged! Stiff as hell though, so had to go back to the mechanics to borrow some long nose mole grips. Finally, bolt was out.

 

So big note to everyone - NEVER break an allen head tool in a machine screw head!

 

With the stator out, we could check dimensions properly. I explained that I'd tested it, but he took one (expert) look and said - 'yup, that's knackered' :) As said, the G7 (TDM850) is narrower on the armatures, however, they then recommended a G14, which seems to come from am Honda VF750. Same internal diameter, same bolt pitch, so I bought it and returned home to fit.

 

Link to it here: http://www.electrexw...tml#SID=44?aG14

 

 

I'm only part way through, having had to degrease, clean and rewire, but with any luck (sorely lacking presently), I hope to have her back up and running tomorrow. Will be sure to report back findings here.

 

PS> Fixitsan's thread on alternative replacements here: http://www.carpe-tdm...showtopic=32601 thanks matey!


Edited by Stiggy, 18 January 2017 - 07:14 pm.


#5 fixitsan

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 11:30 pm

What an ordeal...but good to know you got so much help through it !

 

Is the VF750 stator slightly thicker than the 900 ? Something sticks in my mind about me looking at that one before but the OEM dims were that it was about 1mm thicker and i couldn't say for sure if the screw heads would then clear the flywheel..... Maybe a G14 is the best replacement, can't hurt anyway by the sounds of it


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#6 Stiggy

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 07:16 am

What an ordeal...but good to know you got so much help through it !

 

Is the VF750 stator slightly thicker than the 900 ? Something sticks in my mind about me looking at that one before but the OEM dims were that it was about 1mm thicker and i couldn't say for sure if the screw heads would then clear the flywheel..... Maybe a G14 is the best replacement, can't hurt anyway by the sounds of it

 

The  G14 is 24mm (OD is 115mm and ID is 54mm) - original is 25mm, so fingers crossed! Due to reinstall today....



#7 dmmsta

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 07:52 am

Following this with interest.

 

This level of electrickery is a bit above me, so excuse my ignorance with the following question:

 

Do stators have an charging value?  Or do you have to look at the charging data for the bike it's designed for to see if it's capable for others?


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#8 Stiggy

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 08:11 am

Don't worry - most of it is beyond me, but I've learnt a lot in the last 48 hours!

 

Re the charging value, kind of - the larger the armature/windings, the more voltage it can produce (I believe). As such, fitting a thinner one - like the one from an 850 - would result in less output. The 900 for example should give 50V for each phase at 5000rpm.

 

However, the regulator/rectifier knocks this down to a lower voltage to power the ancilliaries and charge the battery anyway - so as long as you're getting more than the sum of 12V+ the various loads, then it works. I think I've read that outputs can be as low as 24V and still do the job.

 

I think? :)



#9 Bjørge

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 09:24 am

Re the charging value, kind of - the larger the armature/windings, the more voltage it can produce (I believe). As such, fitting a thinner one - like the one from an 850 - would result in less output. The 900 for example should give 50V for each phase at 5000rpm.

 

However, the regulator/rectifier knocks this down to a lower voltage to power the ancilliaries and charge the battery anyway - so as long as you're getting more than the sum of 12V+ the various loads, then it works. I think I've read that outputs can be as low as 24V and still do the job.

 

Number of windings determines voltage, but that's the "raw" voltage. When loaded (charging), voltage drops because of resistance. This voltage drop is what heats up the stator (well, some heat comes from inductive currents in iron core, too), and the thinner the wire, the higher the loss (hence, heat). All alternators are built to charge batteries up to some ~14.5V, and all of them would do the job in any vehicle, electric wise. Just a matter of maximum charging current (before voltage drop limits it).

EDIT: Well, I forgot about RPM - an important factor (higher RPM->higher voltage). Also, magnetic field strength of the rotor as well as gaps between rotor and stator matter.....


Edited by Bjørge, 19 January 2017 - 09:28 am.

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#10 JBX

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 12:03 pm

To keep matters simple, voltage is given by the number of windings and current is given by the thickness of the wiring.

If you increase both you get a bigger stator which can deliver more power (power = volt x ampere).

 

So bigger is better, but if too big it won't go inside... :P


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#11 hvass

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 12:06 pm

PS - I tried to call Robin Williams in Teignmoth for a rewind, but number is unobtainable? Does anyone have an updated contact number for him they could post or PM me?

 

 

Same problem for me trying to find an up to date number ... unfortunate name Robin Williams as search engines drown you out with the 'other' Robin Williams


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#12 Stiggy

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 01:14 pm

Bike back together and appears to be running like a champ (touch wood and keeping everything crossed that it stays that way)!

 

AC voltage from stator (which was 3.6V-5.8V per phase!) now 28V at idle and up to 70-80V at 5k revs!!! Constant 14.5V to battery now even when hot.

 

In addition to the other 'how to' thread, I'd recommend the following:

 

1 - if you decide to use the original grey connector to the reg/reg (as I did), to pull the pins out, remove the yellow plastic insert first, then use a small flat blade screwdriver to lever the grey plastic tabs off the top of the female spade connectors and carefully pull back and out of the connector. If you're careful, you can prise open the spade connectors and re-use them (I did).

 

2 - Impossible to pull the wire back to the stator with the grey connector on. So chop off and splice onto new wires, or do as above. It comes through with just the tails/spades. But - make sure you pull a draw wire through with the original as it makes life much, much easier when reinstalling.

 

3 - Take care with the sensor wires which are spliced into the stator feeds near the engine cover. The connector can be accessed from behind the plastic insert between tank and frame. Disconnect, then carefully pull through. The wires are thin so easily broken if you're ham fisted.

 

4 - It's possible to extract and re-use the original grommets. Leave the sensor wires in place on the 'formed' one, snip the white stator wires near to it and pull out. New wires can then be threaded through. The other grommet is larger, so less of an issue, but you will need to thread through the cable sleeve.

 

I highly, highly recommend Electrex (and the G14) as a replacement. £75+VAT for the part ex. delivery.

 

Hvaas - there's a guy near you in Wilts who does rewinds. He's called Roger and you can reach him on 07733 322574. He has a website but can't find the link at the mo!



#13 hvass

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 02:13 pm

thanks stiggy gives me some options ..

testing rr plug all mine go to earth so sounds like I am well fried .. will see what sort of state it is in

thanks for your advice on the plugs, always good to know how to get them apart, I don't have a good history with small plastic parts and trial and error

 

spoke to roger in marlborough he says used to send his to robin williams who retired last october .. keeps one one the shelf so can usually do exchange or rewind £80 


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#14 Stiggy

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 02:43 pm

thanks stiggy gives me some options ..

testing rr plug all mine go to earth so sounds like I am well fried .. will see what sort of state it is in

thanks for your advice on the plugs, always good to know how to get them apart, I don't have a good history with small plastic parts and trial and error

 

spoke to roger in marlborough he says used to send his to robin williams who retired last october .. keeps one one the shelf so can usually do exchange or rewind £80 

 

I spoke to Roger too (that's how I got his number). He must think there's a run on them :) He had one part rewound, but not finished which is why I ended up at Electrex!

 

Up to you, but I'd rather pay £90 for a brand new one from Electrex (G14) than a rewind? Seems Robin is no longer an option.



#15 dmmsta

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 02:48 pm

Up to you, but I'd rather pay £90 for a brand new one from Electrex (G14) than a rewind? Seems Robin is no longer an option.

 

:wifgeni:

Robins work was top dollar, but a new item for not a lot more is a more appealing option.

 

Interested in the long term test of the G14 unit


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#16 Stiggy

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 05:22 pm

 

:wifgeni:

Robins work was top dollar, but a new item for not a lot more is a more appealing option.

 

Interested in the long term test of the G14 unit

 

Didn't mean to be disparaging about Robin! :) But seems he's retired now anyway!

 

I use the bike to commute to London, so cover between 300-500 miles a week. So the long-term test will actually be covered in quite a short timescale.

 

Fingers crossed!



#17 dmmsta

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 05:39 pm

 

Didn't mean to be disparaging about Robin! :) But seems he's retired now anyway!

 

I use the bike to commute to London, so cover between 300-500 miles a week. So the long-term test will actually be covered in quite a short timescale.

 

Fingers crossed!

Sorry - wasn't what I mean about Robin - his work is good, and by the sounds of it no longer available...I too commute to Londinium with about the same sort of mileage, so a brand new unit is the appealing option in my shoes.  Others with less mileage commitment would probably consider a rewind more favourably...


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#18 jono49

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 11:00 pm

Love it when a forum comes together.....and it dont get much better than this one :good:


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#19 muddy

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 10:16 am

Glad to know you sorted it in the end. Out of interest and for future reference, what mileage is your bike Stiggy?

Bike back together and appears to be running like a champ (touch wood and keeping everything crossed that it stays that way)!
 
AC voltage from stator (which was 3.6V-5.8V per phase!) now 28V at idle and up to 70-80V at 5k revs!!! Constant 14.5V to battery now even when hot.
 
In addition to the other 'how to' thread, I'd recommend the following:
 
1 - if you decide to use the original grey connector to the reg/reg (as I did), to pull the pins out, remove the yellow plastic insert first, then use a small flat blade screwdriver to lever the grey plastic tabs off the top of the female spade connectors and carefully pull back and out of the connector. If you're careful, you can prise open the spade connectors and re-use them (I did).
 
2 - Impossible to pull the wire back to the stator with the grey connector on. So chop off and splice onto new wires, or do as above. It comes through with just the tails/spades. But - make sure you pull a draw wire through with the original as it makes life much, much easier when reinstalling.
 
3 - Take care with the sensor wires which are spliced into the stator feeds near the engine cover. The connector can be accessed from behind the plastic insert between tank and frame. Disconnect, then carefully pull through. The wires are thin so easily broken if you're ham fisted.
 
4 - It's possible to extract and re-use the original grommets. Leave the sensor wires in place on the 'formed' one, snip the white stator wires near to it and pull out. New wires can then be threaded through. The other grommet is larger, so less of an issue, but you will need to thread through the cable sleeve.
 
I highly, highly recommend Electrex (and the G14) as a replacement. £75+VAT for the part ex. delivery.
 
Hvaas - there's a guy near you in Wilts who does rewinds. He's called Roger and you can reach him on 07733 322574. He has a website but can't find the link at the mo!

Hopefully the mods can add this to the knowledge base.

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#20 Matlock

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 01:20 pm

Glad to know you sorted it in the end. Out of interest and for future reference, what mileage is your bike Stiggy?
Hopefully the mods can add this to the knowledge base.

I started a survey about this many years ago. Not really enough response to go on, but it seems to affect higher mileage 900s, but not many of them. I'm now up to 86K miles, with no charging issues. 


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