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#21 danceswithmopeds

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 09:22 pm

6 o'clock yesterday morning, crossing Dublin. I'm stopped at a red light, at the end of a one way bit. Directly across the other side of a very busy road. Cyclist (head to toe in black, no lights) jumps another red light. He comes directly across moving traffic straight at me shouting for me to get out of his "F****** way". " You F****** bikers think you own the road"

Decked him, green light. TDM shaped hole in darkness. Gone

#22 tdm850rider

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 09:36 pm

Bicyclists are always ranting that 'they have as much right to the road',

bollocks!

When they pay registration fees and have number plates (and get the tickets) and start obeying stop signs et al.....

Then I may consider their 'rights', in the meantime they are just annoyances.


Over here it is the law that they (push bikes) have to obey all the same traffic laws that 'we' do..... it's just never enforced.
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#23 E-njoy

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 11:17 pm

QUOTE
A bicycle doesn't carry that risk. The biggest risk he has is killing himself while making a scratch on someone's hood.
Sorry but that is
Bollox


Great argumentation, J. So in your view a bicycle is also a relative complex piece of machinery, is also capable of high performance speeds and does carry a potentially lethal matter of mass and should therefor require skill training, exams, licensing and registration plates?? blink.gif
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#24 E-njoy

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Posted 27 November 2007 - 11:32 pm

QUOTE(tdm850rider @ Tue 27th Nov 2007, 10:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bicyclists are always ranting that 'they have as much right to the road',

bollocks!

When they pay registration fees and have number plates (and get the tickets) and start obeying stop signs et al.....

Then I may consider their 'rights', in the meantime they are just annoyances.
Over here it is the law that they (push bikes) have to obey all the same traffic laws that 'we' do..... it's just never enforced.


Interesting, since a lot of people think the same about motorcyclists. That they should be compulsory organ donors because of their dangerous and irresponsible behavior, not entitled to the same rights as car drivers because they choose to live like a "stuntman". And the dumb behavior of some will of course only justify their prejudices. You even see these prejudices at some EU lawmakers, who obviously would like to see everybody on two wheels get off the road and into a car, just like everybody else.

It's not about registration fees (which would be in cents instead of pounds, if you'd look at the price / weight of a bike), nor about number plates (you can enforce without plates). Here bicyclists do get fined for dangerous behavior, not carrying proper lights at night, not having reflective wheels etc. And not having a plate on the bike doesn't make that any harder (you couldn't flash them for speeding anyway).

I think you (besides being obviously stressed or just frustrated) have a problem more with the law enforcers / government than the occasional stupid bicyclist (as if there aren't any nutters in cars or on scoots / motorbikes running red lights). Of course they have the same rights (those applicable to bicyclists at least) and they shouldn't have to be less just because some nutters decide to take the law into their own hands. As if we all loose our rights if you would be speeding. Where's the sense in that?

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#25 E-njoy

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 12:08 am

Oh wait... I see now you're from the Ustated Nights of Uhmerica... that explains it. You have to be suicidal before you start to participate in traffic with a bicycle there, the country is made purely for cars. You probably can't even get proper lighting for a bike if you wanted... Totally different in Holland, where there are probably more bicycle paths and lanes than roads:







I still think bicyclists have the same rights, but in the US there's clearly no infrastructure for it, unfortunately, except for a few very rare recreational areas. I mean, even motorcycles are seen as recreational vehicles there. Can't blame you for seeing bicyclists as weird creatures.
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#26 tdm850rider

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 12:08 am

QUOTE(E-njoy @ Tue 27th Nov 2007, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think you (besides being obviously stressed or just frustrated) have a problem more with the law enforcers / government than the occasional stupid bicyclist


Stressed/Frustrated?
Thank you Dr Phil. How did you make that diagnosis? By my use of the word 'bollocks' or my claim that bicyclists are 'annoyances'?
(Pretty severe language I must admit.)

QUOTE(E-njoy @ Tue 27th Nov 2007, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Of course they have the same rights (those applicable to bicyclists at least)


They also have obligations (like stopping at red lights), when they recognize their 'obligations' I will be glad to recognize their 'rights'.

QUOTE(E-njoy @ Tue 27th Nov 2007, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As if we all loose our rights if you would be speeding.


I'll hold off replying to that until someone provides me with a translation. tongue.gif

PS: There are hundreds if not thousands of miles of bike lanes/paths in the US. We have tulips too.
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#27 bcristian

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 08:37 am

QUOTE(E-njoy @ Tue 27th Nov 2007, 08:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All car drivers should, in principle, have gotten training, plus theoretic and practical exams. Still, that doesn't seem like a guarantee for them to stop doing stupid stuff now and then. The thing is of course that a car, like a motorcycle and moped, are slightly more complex pieces of machinery, requiring higher skills, with more mass and especially a lot more performance with the ability / potential to kill and hurt a lot of people. That's where the registration / licensing originates from. A bicycle doesn't carry that risk. The biggest risk he has is killing himself while making a scratch on someone's hood.

About the last statement first - it's not absolutely true not even for a car - if someone jumping a red light comes smashing through my windscreen at a perfectly legal 40-50 kmph, it will likely cause severe injuries (like a broken neck). Surely, that person would probably not survive the feat, but that's not exactly my problem either. If I'm on the motorcycle, I think you'll agree that a collision with a bicycle is quite likely to result in a bit more than just a scratch.
My view is that absolutely everyone driving any kind on vehicle on a public road should have a plate, license and insurance. For low risk vehicles like bicycles, these could simply be given away for free, with no examination, but still be mandatory. Then, the exact same rules applied to everyone - if for example the law says that you get 1 to 3 month off the wheel for jumping a red light, apply just the same for a bicyclist doing it. Feel like using the public road even with your license suspended, even on a bike? Well, you might be lucky, or you might see the inside of a prison cell for a few months.
Of course, people do completely idiotic things in cars and motorcycles as well, but still, as least around here, it is a lot more common to see an unregistered vehicle (bicycle, horse drawn cart, scooter/mopeds until recently) doing stupid and annoying things then those that know that they'll only use public transportation if they get caught.

#28 tdm850rider

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 11:16 am

bcristian, that is the point I was trying to make.
Bicycles would not be annoyances if they simply followed the same rules like stopping at a red light
(even if they slipped through after ascertaining that it could be done safely).
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#29 E-njoy

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 12:09 pm

Of course someone with a bicycle could disrupt traffic in such a way that it can cause serious harm, but how many times does that seriously happen? Often enough to justify an expensive registration system which would have to be updated continuously? And what for when one can simply enforce the law without plates as well? At least, it works fine here. Officers on foot, bicycle or scooter checking at crossings is not uncommon. Plates are handy for en mass checking of speeds, but that's a bit pointless for bicycles. Everybody has to have an ID with him/her at all times anyway (14 and older).

I think the difference in law enforcement and the infrastructure here do make a difference. If the law and roads pretend like bicycles don't exist, bicyclist will of course improvise similarly... Just putting plates on while not enabling proper infrastructure for them won't make it safer I think.


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#30 dapleb

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 12:19 pm

QUOTE(E-njoy @ Tue 27th Nov 2007, 11:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>


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#31 E-njoy

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 12:31 pm

QUOTE(tdm850rider @ Wed 28th Nov 2007, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Stressed/Frustrated?
Thank you Dr Phil. How did you make that diagnosis? By my use of the word 'bollocks' or my claim that bicyclists are 'annoyances'?
PS: There are hundreds if not thousands of miles of bike lanes/paths in the US. We have tulips too.


It was the use of that word in combination with a lot of bold letter types, bigger fonts and an exclamation mark that made it look like it's quite a big thing for you? Sure I could be wrong of course, it's just how it "sounded", dude. I know about the Tulips there (actually they originate from Turkey) and I have tried an occasional bicycle path around Seattle. But they're mainly in big cities or in recreational areas. When I lived in South Carolina there was no way for us to take the bicycle to the airport, even though it was just a very short ride. So we took our 8 cylinder '76 Plymouth Gran Fury each time for every short ride, it would have been way too dangerous on the bike (besides the lack of any bicycle provisions there was also the fact that folks there were totally not used to seeing bicyclists on the road). Unless something radically changed the past 6 years, I don't consider the US a very safe place to ride a bike (as a regular and accepted vehicle... obvious from your remarks as well). I'm sure we agree there, right smile.gif
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#32 bcristian

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 01:24 pm

QUOTE(E-njoy @ Wed 28th Nov 2007, 01:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Of course someone with a bicycle could disrupt traffic in such a way that it can cause serious harm, but how many times does that seriously happen?

Well, I guess here is where the difference between where we live comes into play.
Here, unregistered vehicles of all sorts are the source of a disproportionate amount of fatalities on the roads, because certain people tend to act completely irresponsible if they fill they have nothing to lose (e.g. their license). As it generally tends to be the case, people of this sort will usually be more concerned about losing their license than about losing their lives, because each one tends to think along the line that no matter how stupid a stunt they pull, nothing bad will happen to them, since they are too good/careful/whatever than the rest of the idiots that died doing the exact same dumb-ass maneuver.

#33 dapleb

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 01:36 pm

Scarey mix of horse'n'cart to large Lorries.....couldn't believe it, the mixure of transportation methods and speeds....along THOSE roads. Am amased not to have seen any accidents.
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#34 wicklamulla

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 06:36 pm

QUOTE(E-njoy @ Tue 27th Nov 2007, 11:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Great argumentation, J. So in your view a bicycle is also a relative complex piece of machinery, is also capable of high performance speeds and does carry a potentially lethal matter of mass and should therefor require skill training, exams, licensing and registration plates?? blink.gif

well theere was a man in Cornwall a few weeks back that was hit by a crazy cyclist who was deemed to be riding way too fast and on the pavement..........the man struck was killed instantly.

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#35 jht

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Posted 28 November 2007 - 11:27 pm

QUOTE(E-njoy @ Wed 28th Nov 2007, 11:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Of course someone with a bicycle could disrupt traffic in such a way that it can cause serious harm, but how many times does that seriously happen?


In London.....?


pretty often tbh

as bcristian says it the differences in where we live that are coming into play here

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#36 robelst

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 12:44 am

My parents are Dutch and used to work abroad for Shell, so I started life in Venezuela (Caracas) before moving to South Africa (Cape-Town) but also 7 years in The Hague in Holland before moving to the UK in 2001.
I never enjoyed riding a motorcycle very much in Holland (too busy, too many lights/speed-bumps) but cycling there is absolutely fantastic. I really miss that. I had an old-fashioned Harley-Davisdon-like "Gazelle" bicycle for laid-bike riding in the city and shopping, and a sports-bicycle for riding the lovely (cycle-only!) paths through the dunes. Never been as fit as when I lived there laugh.gif
Traffic in Dutch cities is an "organised chaos"; the use of traffic lights for push-bikes seem optional, just be careful for other cyclists coming your way trough red when your light is green laugh.gif There are cycle paths everywhere, and although often abused by car-drivers as temporary parkings people using different means of transport seem to response fairly well towards each other.

Here in the UK people on push-bikes are either kids running over pedestrians or relatively fanatic weirdos principally avoiding to use the sparsely available cycle-paths. There is little in between. In Holland almost every type of person rides a push-bike and it's more an accepted means of transport. It's flatter in Holland, although large areas in the UK are almost just as flat and still few people use bicycles.

I notice when I cycle here that people are either extremely careful (like sticking behind you while climbing a hill at 5 mph while there is plenty of room to pass: really nerve-wrecking) or they woosh past you at 60 mph with inches in between (also quite nerve-wrecking rolleyes.gif ).

Clearly not a bicycle-culture here in many ways.

Still, with fuel prices going up we will probably all soon be on push-bikes laugh.gif
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#37 tdm850rider

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 01:17 am

QUOTE(E-njoy @ Wed 28th Nov 2007, 07:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't consider the US a very safe place to ride a bike (as a regular and accepted vehicle... obvious from your remarks as well). I'm sure we agree there, right smile.gif


wacko.gif
For the last time... what I was saying was that bicycles should stop at stop signs and red lights, signal turns, and so forth.
I really don't see what is so hard to understand about that.









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#38 Guest_whisty4760_*

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 10:23 am

This morning on way into work.
Queuing for roundabout in left lane, signalling left. Car in front moving slowly off, doing about 5mph and going straight over.
Life saver over left shoulder before turning, and whooosh, pedal cyclist (arse) actually clips my left handguard as he screams past both me and the car on his way straight over the roundabout. ranting.gif
There does seem to be a certain breed of cyclist that assumes all other road users should get out of their way.If I'd missed out on the life saver, I'd have taken out the cyclist and had a spill myself. sad.gif
Main gripe is that there is an awful lot of attention and publicity about the 'dangerous bikers', but very little about brain-dead cyclists. Just give us a level playing field please. ranting.gif


#39 tdm850rider

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 10:59 am

QUOTE(whisty4760 @ Thu 29th Nov 2007, 05:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just give us a level playing field please. ranting.gif

Thank you.
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#40 ChrisG

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 12:29 pm

Holland seems to be very well set up for cyclists, in the UK we have a lot less cycle paths and they're generally rubbish. I used to cycle 6 miles each way to work in a previous job, and along that route there was probably about 1.5 miles of cycle path. On stretch was very good but the other was rough and potholed, shared with pedestrians, and had lots of side turnings which had right of way over the cycle lane, meaning it was a lot easier, quicker, and safer to cycle in the road.

To give you an idea of the sort of things I'm talking about here's some of the best known examples of the british approach to cycle lanes






Note the car is legally parked






How many car passengers check thier mirror before opening the door?


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Edited by ChrisG, 29 November 2007 - 12:31 pm.

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