82 replies to this topic

[Nog]

 

Because I'm a bit worried how they can flash good working 'new fuel tables' without having the bike on a dyno. 

 

I presume they have tweaked the map to remove the fueling restrictions that Yamaha would have had to include for emissions, but yes it would still be a "generic" map rather than one suited to any specific bike.

[Coxylaad]

I had no idea the bike was 'power limited' in 1st and second gear. 

 

How does it know what gear you are in? I know it has the rpm signal and the speed signal (iirc)  but what about if you alter your gearing etc. 

 

and how does it limit power? I would like to see the logic behind this!

 

my trx has never felt strangled in the first 2 gears, I am a bit surprised by this 

[tdmprofessor]

 

I presume they have tweaked the map to remove the fueling restrictions that Yamaha would have had to include for emissions, but yes it would still be a "generic" map rather than one suited to any specific bike.

Yes, indeed. But for bikes fitted with a PC3 this should already be 'solved'.

 

I had no idea the bike was 'power limited' in 1st and second gear. 

 

How does it know what gear you are in? I know it has the rpm signal and the speed signal (iirc)  but what about if you alter your gearing etc. 

 

and how does it limit power? I would like to see the logic behind this!

 

my trx has never felt strangled in the first 2 gears, I am a bit surprised by this 

I'm also interested in the technical details of this. 'Disable low gear power limiters' is a bit superficial

Edited by superschotje, 22 June 2017 - 07:58 am.

[Coxylaad]

i am thinking more for my TRX900 on the track, I dont use 1st gear, but coming out of the hairpin at croft in 2nd never felt strangled to me. If I can get some more then great, but I have chased a trx with a 900 engine and FCR's out of the 20mph hairpin, pegged him back and managed to pass him going into clervaux. 

 

It was a 'Coxylaad trademark' block pass but they all count 

 

My point is, the bike is not suffering in the lower gears on track at 100% throttle. 

[Coxylaad]

and here's the video:

 

 

the pass is at 6:15 ish.  

 

quite a fun video to watch, a lot of fun was had

[fixitsan]

The power limiters are present in most bikes, partly for emissions, partly for safety, partly to save the gearbox. In the mk2/4tx it's implemented by retarding the timing (same as Suzuki SV650 and lots of others). I think the 900 might be just the same, but because it's an FI system fuelling might also be tweaked....Samios would know more.

My remap was based on the info I gave Samios - Scorpion exhaust with db killers and no catalyst, and modded airbox with K&N.

I'm pretty sure it is within tolerances which would be found on a dyno'd system, given the way it rolls on, cruises and delivers full power at full throttle.

1st gear is still a hoot, but 2nd and 3rd match it, theres no drop in performance. .
1st gear -pushes hard, 2nd -pushes as hard, 3rd just as rapid again.

The best tests for me are the colour of the exhast pipe interior, colour of spark plugs, running temp and fuel consumption.

It's easy enough to go on a dyno for a tune, but AFR can be calculated as easily as it can be measured (in the ideal world)....The difference between a 14:1 AFR and 13.5:1 is pretty small, so an off the shelf calculated map needn't be a poor choice if the tuner has knowledge and experience.


I don't think another TDM 900 can get through the bottom 3 gears as quickly as this one can

[Coxylaad]

I don't think another TDM 900 can get through the bottom 3 gears as quickly as this one can   

Thats a bold statement! you must be well happy with it 

[fixitsan]

Thats a bold statement! you must be well happy with it 

I know..... but I am happy

[JBX]

Nice stuff !

 

A small tip : if you want to remove the (supposed) low gear power limit, just remove the White/Yellow wire from the ECU connector.

There is no error code thrown by the ECU but it is expected to "Fixes the gear to the top gear".

The result is a dash without speedometer/odometer (get a GPS) and without low gear power limiter, or with placebo effect : I noticed a kind of "no speed limiter" effect, mainly in 5 and 6th gear, but no real "low gear limiter removed" effect.

Next time I'll have a switch to get a better test.

 

Cost is free...

Edited by JBX, 23 June 2017 - 10:42 pm.

[fixitsan]

Nice stuff !

 

A small tip : if you want to remove the (supposed) low gear power limit, just remove the White/Yellow wire from the ECU connector.

There is no error code thrown by the ECU but it is expected to "Fixes the gear to the top gear".

The result is a dash without speedometer/odometer (get a GPS) and without low gear power limiter, or with placebo effect : I noticed a kind of "no speed limiter" effect, mainly in 5 and 6th gear, but no real "low gear limiter removed" effect.

Next time I'll have a switch to get a better test.

 

Cost is free...

 

 

That#s interesting. I recall our previous discussion about this subject and it was thought that there would be no effect of removing the speed signal, but you seem to be confirming that there are limiters now.

 

I'll be back down south  Monday to Friday next week, hopefully there will be someone who wants to come along and try it. I say 'hopefully' , because I do need a second opinion, my view is coloured by the other mods I have been previously running and I've forgptten what a standard bike feels like (!)

 

 In the past I dabbled  with ECU tuning on a car (Alfa 159 jtdm) I once owned, which was endless fun and fraught with complications as you need to remember all of the dependencies of a variable when you change it, or you end up with a 'lumpy; map ! It is based on that experience that I have such praise for the Samios remap....getting more power while retaining good road manners is not the easiest thing to do.

 

If anyone is interested, I'll be at a hotel at the bottom of Newmarket Road, Norwich, Monday to Friday next week, just bring your bike and tools to remove your upper left fairing  if you'ld like to give a second opinion for me   If you've already said you're interested I'll PM the details and we can try to fix one day in favour of the others

[celticbiker]

Thats a bold statement! you must be well happy with it 

Be fun to see how his stacks up against old Blue.

@Coxy

Funny thing isn't it. you show way more commitment and confidence on the TRX than you ever did on the Blade.

When I got off the twin onto the four it took a while to get used to the lack of engine braking too. With the twin I could keep the revs at 5-7k and accelerate hard through the corner and if it starts to get away you can just ease off the gas and let the engine slow you down (assuming a good set up at the front). With the four you have to get it right or be confident enough in your set up and tyres to be able to pull it down mid corner or just tickle the rear brake to pull it back.

We'll have to meet up again and you can try the Faz now I have the race forks and shock set up properly.

[JBX]

 

 

That#s interesting. I recall our previous discussion about this subject and it was thought that there would be no effect of removing the speed signal, but you seem to be confirming that there are limiters now.

 

I'll be back down south  Monday to Friday next week, hopefully there will be someone who wants to come along and try it. I say 'hopefully' , because I do need a second opinion, my view is coloured by the other mods I have been previously running and I've forgptten what a standard bike feels like (!)

 

 In the past I dabbled  with ECU tuning on a car (Alfa 159 jtdm) I once owned, which was endless fun and fraught with complications as you need to remember all of the dependencies of a variable when you change it, or you end up with a 'lumpy; map ! It is based on that experience that I have such praise for the Samios remap....getting more power while retaining good road manners is not the easiest thing to do.

 

If anyone is interested, I'll be at a hotel at the bottom of Newmarket Road, Norwich, Monday to Friday next week, just bring your bike and tools to remove your upper left fairing  if you'ld like to give a second opinion for me   If you've already said you're interested I'll PM the details and we can try to fix one day in favour of the others

 

There is actually no effect on the ECU in the way there is no error code, the dash remains at 0kph, that's all.

I did not find any change in power delivery at low gears : 1/2/3 gears.

I only found that the top speed seems to be more easy to reach, but I made the test on a busy freeway at max 190kph (due to hot weather the speed is limited at 70kph these days on that freeway).

I really can't say if it was more a placebo effect (I did not ride since one week) than a true "limiter removed" effect.

[fixitsan]

.

Edited by fixitsan, 24 June 2017 - 05:48 pm.

[fixitsan]

 

I also have a TDM 900 with PC3 (configured/tested at dyno). I asked this, and it's possible to keep the original ECU fuel tables, while still getting the other improvements. So I think i'll give this a try, seems to be the best choice.

 

Because I'm a bit worried how they can flash good working 'new fuel tables' without having the bike on a dyno. 

 

Its pretty simple actually (!). Once you have the original maps you're able to see where the manufacturer has programmed for peak performance, say, wide open throttle in 5th gear ( no chance if a wheelie due to gearing ) and that gives a good idea right away about what the manufacturer considers safe. You can then use those maximum figures to infer a value for volumetric efficiency. Using that information you're able to safely program fuelling for other gears.

You can assume other things and check to see if the factory maps support those assumptions, such as where the ecu is relying on O2 feedback to trim the fuel for minimum consumption and program instead for better power.
Rate of response using TPS rate of change can also be safely tweaked to give a more responsive feel, and also by moving the amount of fueling at (EG) 60% throttle down into the area where the throttle is opened by 45%, (for identical load values) which gives a feel that the bike is more willing to work.....blending the response back out to the 100% values after that.

 

The standard EU compliant maps also usually have injection starting very early, in order to make sure all the fuel is burned. In my own tests with the logic analyser I've seen injection start a long time before the inlet opens. It works well, but then you have to run the timing more advanced to make sure the fuel burns completely and this can often give you the power impulse too soon after TDC to maximise the benefit, or there is a loss in efficiency due to the pooling of previously atomised fuel in the inlet tract (or both ?)  ... it passes the tests but the power isn't maximised.(I'm not saying it definitely happens in the tdm, just pointing out that once you know what the maximum fueling limits are then you're able to look at the map for each gear and you will immediately see where the manufacturer chose to hold back)

In a way it's like picking the right carb needle for peak power as you do with the carb'd bikes, because that is also the same fueling for each gear.

Samios knows the cam profile, and knows what maximum ignition timing values are safe, and what Yamaha deems to be safe maximum fueling values based on an engine with a similar VE.

In my opinion the fact that the ignition timing is worked on too takes it well beyond what is possible with a PC

Edited by fixitsan, 24 June 2017 - 05:56 pm.

[fixitsan]

Another 100 miles today , this time without top box and with a more critical attitude..... it's still bloody delightful !

The first bar of the fuel gauge (from a full tank) was despatched in well under 30 miles....the second lasted a further 50miles once I adapted to a cruisier style. A little bit more power at the top end would be nice but it could probably only be had by fitting a different cam, but then I might have to trade it at the expense of the low end torque which I wouldn't be happy about.

Something came to mind about the standard bike map.....a standard bike has a catalyst which can be polluted by excess unburnt fuel in the exhaust. That would be another reason why the standard bike feels a bit conservative in comparison to this.

I've also stopped at a few dealers today to see what deals are about and eventually realised I'm very happy with what I've got right here already

Edited by fixitsan, 25 June 2017 - 01:14 pm.

[fixitsan]

I had no idea the bike was 'power limited' in 1st and second gear. 

 

How does it know what gear you are in? I know it has the rpm signal and the speed signal (iirc)  but what about if you alter your gearing etc. 

 

and how does it limit power? I would like to see the logic behind this!

 

my trx has never felt strangled in the first 2 gears, I am a bit surprised by this 

 

The limit on the mk2 is on 2nd and 3rd...on the 900 i think it's also 4th gear too. The timing is retarded usually. The ECU knows the gear because it knows the speed of the bike and the rpm, knowing what the gear ratios are it can assume the correct gear information.

[Studley Ramrod]

Hmmm, well not sure how the ecu knows the speed of a mk2 as it's a mechanical unit.  Mk2a has a leccy wan.

[fixitsan]

Hmmm, well not sure how the ecu knows the speed of a mk2 as it's a mechanical unit.  Mk2a has a leccy wan.

didn't realise you were talking about the mk2....in that case there's 2 extra wires on the neautral switch, to detect when 2nd and 3rd are selected. disconnect them and the limiters are gone

Edited by fixitsan, 25 June 2017 - 04:49 pm.

[Studley Ramrod]

Ah, thought you were referring to the mk2.....

 

The limit on the mk2 is on 2nd and 3rd...on the 900 i think it's also 4th gear too. The timing is retarded usually. The ECU knows the gear because it knows the speed of the bike and the rpm, knowing what the gear ratios are it can assume the correct gear information.

[fixitsan]

Ah, thought you were referring to the mk2.....
 
The limit on the mk2 is on 2nd and 3rd...on the 900 i think it's also 4th gear too. The timing is retarded usually. The ECU knows the gear because it knows the speed of the bike and the rpm, knowing what the gear ratios are it can assume the correct gear information.

Thats right ! I was referring to the mk2 limit on 2nd and 3rd (hardwired) , And 2nd, 3rd and 4th on the 900 (detected in software)

The only programmable parameter on the mk2 would be a programmable ignition box....but I found 4 degrees of advance was a step in the right direction