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Idel High After Fuel Pump Mod.


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#1 openroad

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 01:22 pm

hi all. i've done the fuel pump mod and fitted a fuel filter on my mk1 850 after being caught in the middle of know do to the old vacume pump playing up. before i did this mod i had no problems with pulling in 5th from 2000rpm. now after doing this mod it is juddering around 2500 rpm and is ideling high i can't adjust the idle screw down anymore. what can be the problem. the bike runs fine at high revs but not a low. i cleaned the fuel bowl with wd40 because there was alot of muck in there from my tank could any residue of wd40 cause this. i did adjust the fuel levels because it was causing it to overflow but only to stop the over flowing i didn't measure the levels. could the carbs need balancing again after doing the mod.

Edited by openroad, 29 March 2012 - 01:25 pm.


#2 openroad

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 01:41 pm

QUOTE(openroad @ Thu 29th Mar 2012, 02:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
hi all. i've done the fuel pump mod and fitted a fuel filter on my mk1 850 after being caught in the middle of know do to the old vacume pump playing up. before i did this mod i had no problems with pulling in 5th from 2000rpm. now after doing this mod it is juddering around 2500 rpm and is ideling high i can't adjust the idle screw down anymore. what can be the problem. the bike runs fine at high revs but not a low. i cleaned the fuel bowl with wd40 because there was alot of muck in there from my tank could any residue of wd40 cause this. i did adjust the fuel levels because it was causing it to overflow but only to stop the over flowing i didn't measure the levels. could the carbs need balancing again after doing the mod.


what is the fuel height and how to measure them anyway


#3 hammerman

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:34 pm

A high idle sounds like it's too lean. Try making the idle mixture a bit richer. That said I did the R1 electric pump conversion on my MK1 850, including installing a K and N filter and it runs spot on throughout the range. If I remember I set my fuel heights at 13mm, the idle mixture screws at 2.5 turns out from lightly seated and everything else was left as standard.

Sorry, that should be float height, I did them off the bike.

Edited by hammerman, 29 March 2012 - 09:31 pm.


#4 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:34 pm

If the pump is doing as you say, then it's not the fuel pump that's causing the problem.

Did you blank off the vac pipe that runs from the vac fuel pump to the inlet stub below the carb ?

EDIT: There's a really useful section about setting the fuel levels in the HAYNES MANUEL, 's even got piccys !! A piccy paints a thousand words ! Prolly even more when it's mechanical smile.gif

Edited by Studley Ramrod, 29 March 2012 - 03:38 pm.

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#5 hammerman

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:39 pm

Doh, forgot about the vacuum pipe, but it could also be an air leak somewhere else making it lean, carb or airbox rubbers maybe?

Edited by hammerman, 29 March 2012 - 03:40 pm.


#6 openroad

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:41 pm

QUOTE(hammerman @ Thu 29th Mar 2012, 04:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A high idle sounds like it's too lean. Try making the idle mixture a bit richer. That said I did the R1 electric pump conversion on my MK1 850, including installing a K and N filter and it runs spot on throughout the range. If I remember I set my fuel heights at 13mm, the idle mixture screws at 1.5 turns out from lightly seated and everything else was left as standard.


thanks.
is the 13mm the float level? or the fuel levels. i remember see somewhere you put clear plastic tubes on the bowl bleed nipples and measure the fluid in the tube.
where is the mixture screw. i know where the balancing screw is.



#7 hammerman

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:45 pm

QUOTE(openroad @ Thu 29th Mar 2012, 04:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
thanks.
is the 13mm the float level? or the fuel levels. i remember see somewhere you put clear plastic tubes on the bowl bleed nipples and measure the fluid in the tube.
where is the mixture screw. i know where the balancing screw is.



I set them off the bike so float heights, you can do them on the bike with some bits of plastic tube though, but you'll still have to take them off to set them.

This site should explain where the various jets are, the bit marked 'fuel screw' is the idle mixture adjustment

http://www.factorypr.....50 ducati.htm

Edited by hammerman, 29 March 2012 - 03:46 pm.


#8 openroad

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:45 pm

QUOTE(openroad @ Thu 29th Mar 2012, 04:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
thanks.
is the 13mm the float level? or the fuel levels. i remember see somewhere you put clear plastic tubes on the bowl bleed nipples and measure the fluid in the tube.
where is the mixture screw. i know where the balancing screw is.

i did blank off the vac tube. i tried taking the blank off i could then idle it but the revs was strange it would take a while for the revs to drop back down after reving it. so i've put the blank back in.

#9 hammerman

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 03:51 pm

This was the links I was looking for

http://www.carpe-tdm...hl=float height

http://www.carpe-tdm...hl=float height

Edited by hammerman, 29 March 2012 - 03:54 pm.


#10 openroad

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 05:30 pm

QUOTE(hammerman @ Thu 29th Mar 2012, 04:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A high idle sounds like it's too lean. Try making the idle mixture a bit richer. That said I did the R1 electric pump conversion on my MK1 850, including installing a K and N filter and it runs spot on throughout the range. If I remember I set my fuel heights at 13mm, the idle mixture screws at 1.5 turns out from lightly seated and everything else was left as standard.

Sorry, that should be float height, I did them off the bike.


i got a question for you hammerman because i don't know the in and out of a engine workings. before i fitted the r6 fuel pump th bike ticked over and rev alright now i have fitted a more efficient fuel pump how can it be running lean the only thing i've done is adjust the float to stop over flow

any insight would be much appreciated


#11 hammerman

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 06:50 pm

QUOTE(openroad @ Thu 29th Mar 2012, 06:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i got a question for you hammerman because i don't know the in and out of a engine workings. before i fitted the r6 fuel pump th bike ticked over and rev alright now i have fitted a more efficient fuel pump how can it be running lean the only thing i've done is adjust the float to stop over flow

any insight would be much appreciated


Well the questions I would be asking are

1. Is the r6 pump actually delivering the fuel it is supposed to?
2. Did any of the hoses get squashed during the install?
3. Has anything else been disturbed during the install?

Now I don't know your bike, but when I did mine, I stripped, cleaned and rebuilt the carbs with new seals etc; replaced all the fuel and vacuum hoses; installed new carb and airbox rubbers and installed a new K and N filter. I also checked the R1 pump I bought to make sure it was working, including checking that it cut out when it sensed back pressure in the fuel line (block the fuel delivery hose the pump should stop) and installed a new inline filter which I knew could flow enough fuel for my needs.

Now I'm not saying you've overlooked any of this, but for me there were too many variables to leave to chance, and given I was doing pretty much a full rebuild of the bike my approach was, that I might as well sort everything whilst I was doing it. Like I said my bike has been running with the electric fuel pump for the last 2 years and 10,000 + miles, the bike runs very well and the fuel economy is comparable to other MK1 850's I've seen (with and without electric pumps). If I were you I'd go back and check everything again. If you need any help post something up here or drop me a PM (or bother Studley as he's the resident carb expert smile.gif )

Stick with it, the TDM850 is well worth the effort (having ridden over 500 miles in a single day on mine across Europe, I can vouch for that)

Edited by hammerman, 29 March 2012 - 06:51 pm.


#12 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:16 pm


Here's how I did a pair o carbs off a mk2.



Obviously the bowls are different for the mk1 and the fuel level should be 7.4mm to 8.4mm above the float chamber line.

The float chamber line is the lowest line on the bowls shown in the piccy below.



When you connect the tube, make sure the float bowl drain off screw is unscrewed a good few turns and also make sure the fuel pump is connected and the ignition switched on.

The bike also needs to be upright and on level ground.

Regarding the high revs, it might be worth disconnecting the idle speed adjuster from the frame and seeing if it'll turn, they sometimes get twisted up and won't turn freely.

Why have you fitted the leccy pump when the vac pump was fixed and working ?


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#13 openroad

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:28 pm

QUOTE(hammerman @ Thu 29th Mar 2012, 07:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well the questions I would be asking are

1. Is the r6 pump actually delivering the fuel it is supposed to?
2. Did any of the hoses get squashed during the install?
3. Has anything else been disturbed during the install?

Now I don't know your bike, but when I did mine, I stripped, cleaned and rebuilt the carbs with new seals etc; replaced all the fuel and vacuum hoses; installed new carb and airbox rubbers and installed a new K and N filter. I also checked the R1 pump I bought to make sure it was working, including checking that it cut out when it sensed back pressure in the fuel line (block the fuel delivery hose the pump should stop) and installed a new inline filter which I knew could flow enough fuel for my needs.

Now I'm not saying you've overlooked any of this, but for me there were too many variables to leave to chance, and given I was doing pretty much a full rebuild of the bike my approach was, that I might as well sort everything whilst I was doing it. Like I said my bike has been running with the electric fuel pump for the last 2 years and 10,000 + miles, the bike runs very well and the fuel economy is comparable to other MK1 850's I've seen (with and without electric pumps). If I were you I'd go back and check everything again. If you need any help post something up here or drop me a PM (or bother Studley as he's the resident carb expert smile.gif )

Stick with it, the TDM850 is well worth the effort (having ridden over 500 miles in a single day on mine across Europe, I can vouch for that)


thanks again. the fuel pump is brand new after market one, i've checked the hoses and the new fuel filter i've fited and are all fine.

i'm just thinking out loud if the old pump was not working well and the fuel mixure screw was set rich then when i fitted a more efficient fuel pump then it would run rich now. i'm thinking this because i've just pulled the spark plugs out and they are very black and one smells a bit of petrol. would it have the same effect as a lean mixture at low revs. i took some picture of the plugs they aint great but will have to do.






the last 2 pic are of the right one and smells of petrol. they seem to be blacker than the other one


#14 openroad

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:36 pm

QUOTE(Studley Ramrod @ Thu 29th Mar 2012, 09:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Here's how I did a pair o carbs off a mk2.



Obviously the bowls are different for the mk1 and the fuel level should be 7.4mm to 8.4mm above the float chamber line.

The float chamber line is the lowest line on the bowls shown in the piccy below.



When you connect the tube, make sure the float bowl drain off screw is unscrewed a good few turns and also make sure the fuel pump is connected and the ignition switched on.

The bike also needs to be upright and on level ground.

Regarding the high revs, it might be worth disconnecting the idle speed adjuster from the frame and seeing if it'll turn, they sometimes get twisted up and won't turn freely.

Why have you fitted the leccy pump when the vac pump was fixed and working ?


i checked the idle speed nob thats not even connected to the frame anyway it just hang by the fuel tap. the fuel pump was not up to the job studley i would get 100miles out of tank before it would die even tho there was fuel left in the tank and i tried turning over to reserve still nothing. but so as i put a bit of fuel the gravity would help the fuel flow. got caught 3 times last time i was in a dip with hill either side lucky a nice man spared me a drop of fuel to get me to a petrol station and he would not take any money for the fuel. so thats my reason.



#15 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:48 pm

Could be sticking choke, worn choke plungers or fuel levels need adjusting, hard to say for sure.Can't see how fitting a leccy pump would increase the revs or change the mixture from lean to rich. Mayhaps something was disturbed when you removed the float bowls.
QUOTE(openroad @ Thu 29th Mar 2012, 09:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i checked the idle speed nob thats not even connected to the frame anyway it just hang by the fuel tap. the fuel pump was not up to the job studley i would get 100miles out of tank before it would die even tho there was fuel left in the tank and i tried turning over to reserve still nothing. but so as i put a bit of fuel the gravity would help the fuel flow. got caught 3 times last time i was in a dip with hill either side lucky a nice man spared me a drop of fuel to get me to a petrol station and he would not take any money for the fuel. so thats my reason.
Ah right, I thought that was happening before you fixed the pump with the loose screw, not after. Guess I musta read it wrong.

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#16 openroad

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 08:51 pm

QUOTE(Studley Ramrod @ Thu 29th Mar 2012, 09:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Could be sticking choke, worn choke plungers or fuel levels need adjusting, hard to say for sure.

Can't see how fitting a leccy pump would increase the revs or change the mixture from lean to rich. Mayhaps something was disturbed when you removed the float bowls.

i checked the choke it seams fine moves freely. i'll get my mechainical mate to look at it for me. with the fuel mix screw which way leaners the fuel mixture clockwise or anti-clockwise.

#17 hammerman

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:30 pm

QUOTE(openroad @ Thu 29th Mar 2012, 09:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i checked the choke it seams fine moves freely. i'll get my mechainical mate to look at it for me. with the fuel mix screw which way leaners the fuel mixture clockwise or anti-clockwise.


Turn the screws fully clockwise until lightly seated, then back them out two and a half turns (three is the standard setting for a Mk1). Start from there, more turns out richens the mixture.

Another thought, maybe you should make sure all your valve clearances are OK before you start messing too much with the fueling ?

#18 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 07:30 am

[quote name='openroad' date='Sun 4th Mar 2012, 03:30 PM' post='235242']
I HAVE FOUND THE PROBLEM AND FIXED IT. IT DIDN'T COST ME A PENNY. AND YOU WON'T BELIVE IT. ONE LITTLE SCREW NO BIGGER THAN 4MM LONG HAD COME OFF INSIDE THE FUEL PUMP WHICH WAS EFFECTING THE VACUUM SO IT WOULD NOT SUCK THE FUEL FAST ENOUGH TO FILL THE CARBS. I CAN'T BELIVE IT. JUST COME BACK FROM A TEST RIDE WITH NO HICKCUPS. STILL HAVE TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE FUEL GETS A LITTLE BIT LOWER. BUT BASICALLY THE SCREW HOLDS A SMALL DIAPHRAGM IN PLACE. THE SCREW CAME OUT AND SLIGHLTY BENT THE LARGER DIAPHRAGM SHOW IN ONE OF THE PICS I PUT IT BACK TOGETHER AND HEY PRESTO.

Seems I did read it right. rolleyes.gif

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#19 openroad

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:05 am

it was better than it was after that but i'm still only getting 100 miles now with the old one and when it got to a point it would not suck anymore fuel and i be stranded. so i've been carrying a fuel can in my top box. there is no blockage on the reserve because i've checked that by pulling the pip off fuel pump and turning the tap from off to reserve and back to on and fuel flows


#20 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 08:21 am


I see, so you didn't fix the problem then.

Sooooo, are ya gonna be setting the fuel levels next ? Seems loike a good place to start.

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