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Metallic Bashing Sound From Cylinder Head Tdm -94

cylinder head cam chain

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#1 Janne81

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 09:56 am

Hello all, I need some expertise to determine what is causing metallic bashing sound from my cylinder head. My bike is TDM -94 with 50000km (30000 miles) ridden (probably a lot more than that but according milometer :)

 

Here's the background for my problem: 

Cylinder head gasket started leaking, I removed cylinder head and took it for machining and valve adjustment, inserted new cylinder head gasket, inserted cylinder head and cam chain => Cam chain did not line up totally correct (see picture. The angle of the picture lies a little bit, the 'E' is actually in line with cylinder head): https://www.dropbox....jxmi/O3N2q5brce

 

I assembled all bits and pieces and started the engine and there is this metallic sound like one valve is bashing somewhere (or valve adjustment totally wrong?). So I killed the engine and now I'm wondering where to start fault tracing. With my limited experience I have came up with the following scenarios:

 

1. Valve adjustment wrong with some valve (work was done by professional company but everything is possible, right?) 

2. Cam chain timing is wrong. Can anyone say from the pic if this is the case (it's app. half tooth wrong)? 

3. Cam chain jumped a tooth while starting the engine 

4. Cam chain tensioner not working correctly  => can this cause sharp metallic sound (or more like rattling)? 

5. Exhaust pipes were damaged during dissasembly (torn under the flange) => exhaust fumes escapes directly from the cylinder head => does this have any affect on the valves? 

 

Can you help a fellow TDM driver? 



#2 TDMick

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 11:42 am

Start with cam chain and camshaft timing.

 

there's plenty of info in the knowledge base.

 

 

 

 

Welcome!

 

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#3 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 11:42 am

There's a few of things that spring to mind.

 

When you set the valve timing, did you make sure the no.1 cylinder was at TDC ?  The camshaft lobes of no.1 cylinder should be facing away from each other

 

The valve buckets can easily stick if the are put in at an awkward angle.

 

The shims need to be fully pressed into the shim recesses.

 

I'd also suggest you don't ever turn the engine over using the starter motor after rebuilding/adjusting the engine.  Always best to turn it over by hand with the valve cover still removed.  Then you will see if the timing has slipped.

 

If the timing is correct then check the valve clearances first.


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#4 TDMick

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 11:45 am

Did you leave a spanner in there? :hide:


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#5 Janne81

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 05:17 pm

Did you leave a spanner in there? :hide:

 

I hope not :) 

 

Yeah I will first check the timing, then cam chain tensioner and finally the valve clearances. Although the company who made the valve clearance setup charged me a hell of lot of money so you would assume they made it correct..

 

But I'll take a look and post here if I found the cause and remedy. Thanks guys.



There's a few of things that spring to mind.

 

When you set the valve timing, did you make sure the no.1 cylinder was at TDC ?  The camshaft lobes of no.1 cylinder should be facing away from each other

 

The valve buckets can easily stick if the are put in at an awkward angle.

 

The shims need to be fully pressed into the shim recesses.

 

I'd also suggest you don't ever turn the engine over using the starter motor after rebuilding/adjusting the engine.  Always best to turn it over by hand with the valve cover still removed.  Then you will see if the timing has slipped.

 

If the timing is correct then check the valve clearances first.

 

Yes, both pistons were at tdc. I checked the timing mark on the end of crankshaft (flywheel?). And I did turn the engine multiple times by hand at the end of crankshaft before assembling it. Did not hear any noises while turning by hand (except the tensioner getting tighter).



#6 SteveK

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 05:47 pm

Did you leave a spanner in there? :hide:

Or cardboard :rotflmmfao:


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#7 Sidarta

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 12:55 am

Hello all, I need some expertise to determine what is causing metallic bashing sound from my cylinder head. My bike is TDM -94 with 50000km (30000 miles) ridden (probably a lot more than that but according milometer :)

 

Here's the background for my problem: 

Cylinder head gasket started leaking, I removed cylinder head and took it for machining and valve adjustment, inserted new cylinder head gasket, inserted cylinder head and cam chain => Cam chain did not line up totally correct (see picture. The angle of the picture lies a little bit, the 'E' is actually in line with cylinder head): https://www.dropbox....jxmi/O3N2q5brce

 

I assembled all bits and pieces and started the engine and there is this metallic sound like one valve is bashing somewhere (or valve adjustment totally wrong?). So I killed the engine and now I'm wondering where to start fault tracing. With my limited experience I have came up with the following scenarios:

 

1. Valve adjustment wrong with some valve (work was done by professional company but everything is possible, right?)

2. Cam chain timing is wrong. Can anyone say from the pic if this is the case (it's app. half tooth wrong)? 

3. Cam chain jumped a tooth while starting the engine 

4. Cam chain tensioner not working correctly  => can this cause sharp metallic sound (or more like rattling)? 

5. Exhaust pipes were damaged during dissasembly (torn under the flange) => exhaust fumes escapes directly from the cylinder head => does this have any affect on the valves? 

 

Can you help a fellow TDM driver? 

Hi Janne81!

 

1.Yes, there is such possilibilidade. Mistakes happen. 

2. The photograph shows that the alignment is not correct. 

I'm doing the valves on my TDM850 (2001). When I opened the lid, I saw the same look of your photo. I removed the tensioner and realized that he was in the last slot. This demonstrates that the current was at the end of life. Installed new chain and lines are in tune. Was the question: current end of life, prevents perfect alignment? There is to skip the middle tooth. Visual means tooth is because the gap between links in the chain, 
3. Under normal conditions there. Yes, if the tensioner failed due to wear of the slot. Any movement of the intake camshaft, before installing the tensioner, or even touch the inner side stretchers, can jump a tooth. Thus, the tensioner may have already been assembled with the difference. 
4.  Yes rattle when the phase change to the next notch. Metallic sound glided up due to wear notches. In this case it may skip one or more catching teeth and the head of the valve piston. 
5.  Articles that have already read in extreme cases the heating is possible crack valves. Due to cold air intake, during deceleration. (Thermal shock) 
 
Cheers!
 
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#8 Janne81

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:24 am

This is what has been going on. I checked the valve clearances and they were too tight, 0.05-0.15 (mm) on the inlet side and 0.15-0.25 on the exhaust side. Now it has been corrected and clearances are 0.15-0.20 on the inlet side and 0.25-0.30 on the exhaust side. 

 

But I still have the problem of misalignment with the chain, I can not set it closer than it is on this picture (maybe half a tooth?):

https://www.dropbox....0130609_001.jpg

 

Tensioner seems to work fine and it still has movement left when I remove it. Is there any other change than buying a new cam chain? 



#9 wicklamulla

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:30 am

hello Janne81 where are you based ?


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#10 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:12 am

The only way to sort that out is to fit a new camchain.  That said, it should run fine as it is.


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#11 Janne81

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:01 am

hello Janne81 where are you based ?

I'm from Finland, a city called Seinäjoki. There isn't a lot of TDM drivers here (at least not older TDM's like mine). 

 

I ordered a new cam chain and will replace it next weekend. Hopefully this sorts out the problem and I can assemble the engine. And furthermore I hope there will not be any extra noises after the assembly. Still kind of bugs me to not find the root cause for the bashing sound since it could not be the valve clearances. Maybe it was the misalignment of the chain?



#12 Sidarta

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 05:20 pm

I'm from Finland, a city called Seinäjoki. There isn't a lot of TDM drivers here (at least not older TDM's like mine). 

 

I ordered a new cam chain and will replace it next weekend. Hopefully this sorts out the problem and I can assemble the engine. And furthermore I hope there will not be any extra noises after the assembly. Still kind of bugs me to not find the root cause for the bashing sound since it could not be the valve clearances. Maybe it was the misalignment of the chain?

Hi Janne81

 

I've seen posts on Carpe members (TDM850 and 900) stating that they found the marks of the camshaft references out of position. Up to 3 teeth were skipped and the bike was still running normally. I do not remember if there was noise extranho reported.
You tried to manually force the tensioner, so he jumped another notch. When you removed it and he had to have slots but be triggered, the spring probably did not fulfill its function. Can it be? If the tensioner has notches disponíeis for use, means that the current is not reached at the end and life. Lack of spring pressure is to tighten the chain tensioner,
 
Cheers!
 
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#13 dablik

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 06:40 pm

This is what has been going on. I checked the valve clearances and they were too tight, 0.05-0.15 (mm) on the inlet side and 0.15-0.25 on the exhaust side. Now it has been corrected and clearances are 0.15-0.20 on the inlet side and 0.25-0.30 on the exhaust side. 

 

But I still have the problem of misalignment with the chain, I can not set it closer than it is on this picture (maybe half a tooth?):

https://www.dropbox....0130609_001.jpg

 

Tensioner seems to work fine and it still has movement left when I remove it. Is there any other change than buying a new cam chain? 

 

I had this very same issue Janne but so have a number of other people (mines a 900) and put mine back together much the same as in your picture,, a new cam chain tensioner (upgrade for a 900) no problems at all..


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#14 Janne81

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 06:44 am

I had this very same issue Janne but so have a number of other people (mines a 900) and put mine back together much the same as in your picture,, a new cam chain tensioner (upgrade for a 900) no problems at all..

Thank you for the tip. The tensioner is so simple device that it's difficult to believe it would malfunction. Is there any way to test and verify the tensioner functionality? I mean, when I insert the springs I can hear the rattling sound of the tensioner getting tighter. Then when I turn the engine by hand I can hear that it usually tightens a notch or a two, is this normal or should it be at max tension after inserting the springs? 

 

I have not manually lenghtened the tensioner, the service manually says you have to have it retracted when installing to the engine. This is how much it's "erected" when I remove it:

 

https://www.dropbox....0130604_018.jpg

 

There is a few notch still that could be erected.



#15 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 08:21 am

Sounds like the tensioner is working fine.


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#16 dablik

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 11:22 am

Sounds normal..


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#17 Sidarta

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 05:27 pm

Hi Janne81

 

The function of the spring tensioner is pushing for him to jump slots. If this happens when you are tightening the bolt, or when you turn the engine by hand, is perfectly normal. While the current permit spring tensioner will push her. Until you reach the last slot. There is reason for concern.
Concern would be if it were the noise of the chain jumping sprocket teeth of the camshaft

 

Recently I changed the chain of command (8Fiddly - 2001)
The reason: the noise of the chain tensioner and beating had fulfilled its function and was in the 15th slot. The horizontal marks did not line up, indicating virtually half tooth out of position. This indicated the end of life for the chain.
I took the tensioner Yamaha dealer and the mechanic said the carvings were perfect. Tensor tested on several notches and always pressing against the floor. The tensioner not moving, or rather, not receding. It does not deslisava back, meaning that it was good. That is the test.
But if your tensioner has not reached the end of the slots and the current keeps crashing, it may be that the spring is not having the strength to jump over a tooth. Can Be? Why then do not try to manually force a notch more.?
 
Cheers!
 
Sidarta

Edited by Sidarta, 11 June 2013 - 05:32 pm.

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#18 Janne81

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:13 pm

Ok, so I changed the cam chain and the marks lined up perfectly, finally :) 

 

I assembled the engine and fired it up. It does sound pretty rough with those valves bashing, what you guys think?

 

https://www.dropbox....0130612_008.mp4

 

I think I'm gonna assemble the rest and take it for a spin..!



Ok, so I changed the cam chain and the marks lined up perfectly, finally :)

 

I assembled the engine and fired it up. It does sound pretty rough with those valves bashing, what you guys think?

 

https://www.dropbox....0130612_008.mp4

 

I think I'm gonna assemble the rest and take it for a spin..!

Oh sorry about the size of the video, I guess you have to download it to see it.



#19 Sidarta

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Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:57 pm

Hey janne81

 

Janne81
 
The noise of the video (it seems more an old sewing machine), is the same as you noted before replacing the chain?
My bike had the noise of the chain loose, worn, but no noise from valves hitting.
After the exchange of the chain does not have any noise.
I did the valve clearances and have today for cylinder 2:
Admission: 0.18, 0.18 and 0.19
Exhaust: 0.29 and 0.29
Cylinder 1:
Admission: 0.18, 0.20 and 0.18
Exhaust: 0.31 and 0.30
All were high for the measures were higher and has no noise.
Are you sure that the clearances are correct in your bike.
There would be beyond the maximum allowed?
 
Cheers!
 
Sidarta

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#20 Janne81

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:06 am

Hey janne81

 

Janne81
 
The noise of the video (it seems more an old sewing machine), is the same as you noted before replacing the chain?
My bike had the noise of the chain loose, worn, but no noise from valves hitting.
After the exchange of the chain does not have any noise.
I did the valve clearances and have today for cylinder 2:
Admission: 0.18, 0.18 and 0.19
Exhaust: 0.29 and 0.29
Cylinder 1:
Admission: 0.18, 0.20 and 0.18
Exhaust: 0.31 and 0.30
All were high for the measures were higher and has no noise.
Are you sure that the clearances are correct in your bike.
There would be beyond the maximum allowed?
 
Cheers!
 
Sidarta

No, before the sound was really sharp. Like metal banging metal (like too big valve clearance). Now it doesn't have the metallic bashing sound anymore but those valves are rather loud..?





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