20 replies to this topic

[Catteeclan]

If anyones interested.

 

https://petition.par...etitions/118875

[sidestand]

Best love well alone - we don't want them looking at emissions tests, or it's goodbye to those natty end - cans, de-catting & power commanders 

[ric]

Best leave well alone - we don't want them looking at emissions tests, or it's goodbye to those natty end - cans, de-catting & power commanders

 

+1

 

Think the petition is at least a bit naive

[Catteeclan]

we don't want them looking at emissions tests

That's going to happen anyway, just a matter of time.

[tomekc]

Done.........

[jono49]

Done   I've just signed another recently, about Osborne's proposal of tax returns 4 times a year for sole traders and small buisinesses, it's being heard next Monday at 4.30pm in the commons......Don't sit there and let it happen

Farmers who recieve Subsidies from goverment every year dont pay road tax on Tractors who consistantly run about laiden to 20 tonnes Gross doing damage to roads...... bikes don't!!!!!

Edited by jono49, 21 January 2016 - 07:18 am.

[ChrisG]

I'm with Mick.  VED is based on CO2 emissions, which is proportional to fuel usage, and nothing to do with congestion or damage to roads.  My bike and car do similar MPG but the car costs twice as much in VED.  I really don't want them looking too closely at this.

 

On the other hand if they had any sense whatsoever they'd do away with VED and put it fuel instead do it really is related to CO2 emissions and not an arbitrary measure of how much CO2 a vehicle could produce over a given number of miles. 

 

 

 

Farmers who recieve Subsidies from goverment every year dont pay road tax on Tractors who consistantly run about laiden to 20 tonnes Gross doing damage to roads...... bikes don't!!!!!

Only if they're doing journeys less than about a mile between fields, anything further afield than that and they also pay road tax

Edited by ChrisG, 21 January 2016 - 08:18 am.

[fixitsan]

It won't make much difference, it's main claim about cars paying £30 and less (Band C vehicles and lower) is already out of date.

Road tax revolution: New £140 charge for 95% of new cars by 2017 but hybrids and high-end motors to be hit

• Three new road tax bands will be created in 2017, Osborne announces
• It means 95% of new cars will come with £140 annual vehicle excise duty
• MOT will be required after four years rather than three for new motors

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz3xrikl8Nm 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

 

The question is, if you don't think you should pay anything to use the roads, can you expect traffic signs ? road repairs ? national coordinated traffic schemes ? 

 

Osborne has vowed to ringfence every penny of collected revenue for the purpose of building new roads.

 

 

We need to bear in mind that many people consider motorcycling to be reckless, particularly the sort of selfish people who like to say 'I don't see why I should have to pay for that when I don't get any benefit'. Motoryclists have a disproportionately high number of accidents than other road users, yet we don't pay any extra when we have to have the police and the ambulance turn out more frequently than for other road users. I don't want to give those people any other reason to dislike motorcyclists.

 

I feel that if I expect there to be roads for me to use, maintained to a certain standard, lit and painted up to recognised levels, and the other road users are told that I have the same right of way as them, then unless I want to be travelling on dirt track byway 'right of way' roads then i should pay towards the maintenance of them.

 

I agree there needs to be a proportionate method applied for taxation......the argument in the petition is that bikers do fewer miles....well so does my retired pensioner neighbour, she does less than 2000 miles, yet has to pay full VED levels, the same as a car driver doing 20,000 and over. So instead of opening ourselves up to accusations that we're only thinking of ourselves perhaps we should instead support other petitions calling fro fairness in VED costs, such as applying VED to fuel sales...therefore the more you use the more you pay.

[ChrisG]

Motoryclists have a disproportionately high number of accidents than other road users, yet we don't pay any extra when we have to have the police and the ambulance turn out more frequently than for other road users. I don't want to give those people any other reason to dislike motorcyclists.

 

Tell them we cost less in pensions

[fixitsan]

 

Tell them we cost less in pensions

 

 

Good idea. I once saw a tv show which did an analysis of the cost of smokers -

Is it cheaper for the nation to let smokers kill themselves early, get a couple of years of critical care before departing.....or let them live to 90 , paying their pension and care costs....it's cheaper to let them kill themselves early !

 

 

Actually the deeper I dig into road tax (actually road tax was abolished by Churchill, it is Vehicle Excise Duty) the less it seems to exist. The current system is a pollution tax. I am one of those people called 'a denier' and don't think CO2 is a problem....if it were, then why not remove Catalytic convertors from cars and bikes, because it is the cats which make most of the CO2. The resulting higher levels of carbon monoxide does have health implications, but are health implications better than a dead planet ?

 

 

Roads are maintained by local authorities, paid for from local and national purses, therefore people who don't even own a vehicle already pay for the roads, but they benefit enormously from roads every day.

 

We need to look at what VED is used for and why we have it. Osborne is looking to put all VED revenue into road projects (currenty only about 25% goes to roads [Auto Express} ), so we're trying to settle an argument around a seriously flawed system.

 

 

If we push too hard we will invite the 'pay per mile' model of taxation, and that means fitting a tracker to every vehicle !

[fixitsan]

At the risk of harping on....I feel the most unfair thing is that motorcycles aren't taxed like cars. Car's are taxed with regards to grams of CO2 per unit of distance. Motorcycles are taxed on engine capacity, yet many have been fitted with cats for years.

 

As pointed out already by another poster, if we fight for equality we will invite testing of cats at MOT time. I know a lot of guys who swap out standard exhausts for something else, and refit the standard ones for the MOT. maybe that would be enough ? Maybe not ? What happens at a VOSA roadside check ? 

 

I would probably sign a petition asking for equality in methods of taxation, but then the cat removers ( I used to be one) are out on a limb

[muddy]

Big state, big taxes. A big state within a big state, bigger taxes. Wait till we go global.

[ChrisG]

I am one of those people called 'a denier' and don't think CO2 is a problem....if it were, then why not remove Catalytic convertors from cars and bikes, because it is the cats which make most of the CO2. The resulting higher levels of carbon monoxide does have health implications, but are health implications better than a dead planet ?

 

Catalytic converters don't generate much CO2 compared with what's already in the exhaust, CO is a product of inefficient combustion and is only a couple of percent of the amount of the CO2 in an exhaust.

 

 

I feel the most unfair thing is that motorcycles aren't taxed like cars. Car's are taxed with regards to grams of CO2 per unit of distance. Motorcycles are taxed on engine capacity, yet many have been fitted with cats for years.

 

If bikes were charged VED on the same basis as cars, whether or not they have a cat wouldn't make a big difference, the fuel economy would be the biggest impact.    Assuming an TDM does 50mpg would equate to about 135g/km CO2, or VED band E at £130/year.  If we assume 40mpg (pessimistic but that's what the MCN review quotes) it's 169g/km, which is band H at £205/year.

 

I'm quite happy with the current system thanks!

Edited by ChrisG, 21 January 2016 - 11:28 am.

[fixitsan]

CO, carbon monoxide, is the largest component of the three main pollutants which cats were designed to reduce.

2CO mixes with O2 to give CO2.

In other words, all of the monoxide converts to dioxide. This says that there is more CO2 coming from a cat convertor than what goes in

[chrisr]

you know that if they changed how they tax them it will cost more!

Edited by chrisr, 21 January 2016 - 03:42 pm.

[fixitsan]

I once did some research, and according to the British Soft Drinks Manufacturers Association, there is on average 24g of CO2 released from a litre of carbonated drinks. I did some more digging and found that a lot of the CO2 is derived as a waste product from industrial processes, ones which would otherwise have to pay to release, store or spend carbon tax credits to offset.

In other words an industrial waste product which should apparently be taxed is sold on, and the end consumers release it on your behalf.

ive seen some families stock up their shopping trollies with 10L of soft drinks and sparkling water and who knows how much beer and lambrusco is consumed too......so potentially 20L x 24g = 480g of CO2. .... or the same as driving upto 6 miles in an efficient car, every week. Thats like one school run worth of emmissions !

Edited by fixitsan, 21 January 2016 - 02:24 pm.

[fixitsan]

you know that if it they changed how they tax them it will cost more!

I think if we were charged for what we actually produced we would pay a lot less.

They base their figures for cars on average mileages....do they calculate a prorata amount for bikes ? Average bike miles must be much less than for cars

[ChrisG]

CO, carbon monoxide, is the largest component of the three main pollutants which cats were designed to reduce.

2CO mixes with O2 to give CO2.

In other words, all of the monoxide converts to dioxide. This says that there is more CO2 coming from a cat convertor than what goes in

 

Yes but....  For every gram of CO2 that a catalytic converter produces from CO, there's another 30-100g of CO2 that was produced by the engine that passes straight through the cat. ,

 

The general gist of the engine is hydrocarbon (petrol) + oxygen = water + CO2 + energy.   Burning a kg of petrol efficiently will create about 3.5kg of CO2. 

 

Incomplete combustion leads to there being a small amount of CO and unburned hydrocarbons in there, some of the Nitrogen in the air gets converted to NO and NO2, and then there's impurities like sulphur in the fuel leading sulphur oxides, but the CO is only a few percent of the amount of CO2.  Hence the catalytic converter only increases the CO2 emission by a very small amount, while massively reducing CO, NOx and UHC emissions

Edited by ChrisG, 21 January 2016 - 04:27 pm.

[Studley Ramrod]

you know that if they changed how they tax them it will cost more!

 

Soooooo true !  Leave as is, we're doing alright.

[fixitsan]

Yes but....  For every gram of CO2 that a catalytic converter produces from CO, there's another 30-100g of CO2 that was produced by the engine that passes straight through the cat. ,
 
The general gist of the engine is hydrocarbon (petrol) + oxygen = water + CO2 + energy.   Burning a kg of petrol efficiently will create about 3.5kg of CO2. 
 
Incomplete combustion leads to there being a small amount of CO and unburned hydrocarbons in there, some of the Nitrogen in the air gets converted to NO and NO2, and then there's impurities like sulphur in the fuel leading sulphur oxides, but the CO is only a few percent of the amount of CO2.  Hence the catalytic converter only increases the CO2 emission by a very small amount, while massively reducing CO, NOx and UHC emissions

Well saved.....i was close to splitting hairs