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Clunky Gearchange On Tdm 850 3Vd1


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#1 curlylegend

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Posted 17 August 2020 - 09:54 pm

Just curious but, can anyone give me a technical explanation of how the gearchange is improved on later models ?

I'm actually kind of used to the slow, clunky gearchange ( especially up into third...) on my bike but I was wondering what changes were made.  Was the profile on the engagement dogs altered ? Was the selector mechanism changed ?

 

Just idle curiosity..... I'm unlikely to do anything about it.



#2 wicklamulla

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 06:41 am

Studley and Dapleb shud be able to answer this one i reckons. Ratios are different for a start but i dunno if there be different components in the gearbox in terms of design or quality that makes the improvements?


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#3 Bjørge

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 07:01 am

Wider oil channels has been mentioned...


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#4 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 11:49 am

I only dismantled a late mk2a gearbox so can't really compare to a mk1.  My understanding is that gearbox improvements were made throughout the history of the TDM.

Also, I don't find the mk1 gearbox to be a lot more clunky than the later mk2a.


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#5 dapleb

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 11:53 am

It's cous MK1 riders are more caveman...the clunk is just from the giant hairy feet.

I have only dealt with MK1 boxes. I do have a late mk2 and 9er grrrbox lion abooot but haven't compared MK1 and later mk2.
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#6 Bjørge

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 12:01 pm

I only dismantled a late mk2a gearbox so can't really compare to a mk1.  My understanding is that gearbox improvements were made throughout the history of the TDM.
Also, I don't find the mk1 gearbox to be a lot more clunky than the later mk2a.


Haven't been on a Mk2a yet, but I think the 9er was a bit smoother than the Mk1.
That said, I don't complain much about the Mk1 box, used to hate the clutch...which is now good.
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#7 curlylegend

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 09:41 pm

Don't get me wrong, it's not a complaint.  I've ridden worse gearboxes !   Maybe I'm watching too many You Tubers raving about the super slick shifts they're getting on modern bikes.....

In the early eighties I worked for a BMW dealer in Scotland and we had a particular pain in the arse of a customer complaining about the gear change on his R80/7.  Honestly, there was f... all wrong with it !

He'd just come off a Honda CB550 which admittedly had a super slick gear change even then, and he couldn't get used to the different characteristics of the BM gear change.  To cut a long story short, I eventually had to strip his gearbox and "fix" his gearchange. I thought I was really just wasting my time but I spoke to the guy in Bracknell....BMW UK's HQ.... and he gave me a lot of information about setting up the gearbox. The trick was to pre-load the bearings by varying the shims and to use ONLY the oil recommended by BMW. But it was real trial end error and it took me several gearbox strip and rebuilds to get it right. So I did this and shit, the gearchange was as fast and smooth as anything !

Apparently, at the factory, they just couldn't economically devote enough time to build the 'boxes like that, but Guildo at BMW Bracknell was heavily involved in preparing the first of the Paris-Dakar bikes so I benefitted from his research.

Was the customer pleased ?  No chance, he said he'd lost faith in BMW and traded his bike in for a Fiat 127......



#8 MipeTDM

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Posted 26 August 2020 - 08:19 am

Nice anekdote!



#9 dandywarhol

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 09:53 am

Because the Mk1 has larger jumps between the ratios and riders tend to change up before allowing the revs to synchronise


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#10 Pedro

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 10:51 am

Because the Mk1 has larger jumps between the ratios and riders tend to change up before allowing the revs to synchronise


I've got a 3vd crankcase open and I've noticed when playing with the gears that on 2nd to 3rd, the peg on the selector forks has to travel back on itself, like a "V" and is harder to change by hand compared to the other gears. That could explain the problem people are having changing 2nd to 3rd and as a consequence, chipping the dogs and ruining 3rd gear. I've got used to mine and give the lever a proper lift when changing.

#11 dandywarhol

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 04:32 pm

I've got a 3vd crankcase open and I've noticed when playing with the gears that on 2nd to 3rd, the peg on the selector forks has to travel back on itself, like a "V" and is harder to change by hand compared to the other gears. That could explain the problem people are having changing 2nd to 3rd and as a consequence, chipping the dogs and ruining 3rd gear. I've got used to mine and give the lever a proper lift when changing.

 

Good point - I  recall they all have that "vee" on the drum to enable neutral, I don't think it makes a lot of difference when immersed in oil - I still think it's the ratio jump that causes the bad change


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#12 curlylegend

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Posted 05 September 2020 - 09:35 pm

I've got a 3vd crankcase open and I've noticed when playing with the gears that on 2nd to 3rd, the peg on the selector forks has to travel back on itself, like a "V" and is harder to change by hand compared to the other gears. That could explain the problem people are having changing 2nd to 3rd and as a consequence, chipping the dogs and ruining 3rd gear. I've got used to mine and give the lever a proper lift when changing.

 

Well that kind of explains what I feel when changing from 2nd into 3rd.  I've tried letting it rev out before changing up, I've tried changing up at low revs and still find it's as much luck as anything whether you get a clean change or not. I've tried hooking the lever up slowly and steadily and I've tried firmly and rapidly. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't ?

Mostly, I've just resigned myself to accepting that a fast change is more likely to crunch than a slow steady one. That is more or less feeling it into engagement. 

I'm content doing that, I don't want to be causing unnecessary damage.

And it's still a minor point really. It didn't detract from a 1600km three day tour of the Basque Region, that I'm just back from !



#13 dablik

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 11:32 am

Not to make you jealous at all but mine is lubberly  ;)


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#14 curlylegend

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 09:16 pm

Not to make you jealous at all but mine is lubberly  ;)

Hell, I've got to admit it, it could just be me....!



#15 dablik

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Posted 06 September 2020 - 09:55 pm

Hell, I've got to admit it, it could just be me....!

 

In fairness mine used to be clunky, it now has a mk2 2001 gear gubbins which is an improvement..


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#16 curlylegend

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Posted 07 September 2020 - 09:22 pm

 

In fairness mine used to be clunky, it now has a mk2 2001 gear gubbins which is an improvement..

 

I've been following your epic closely..... so I can assure you I won't be going as far as that !

But if I ever did, I'd know who to ask for advice......?



#17 Pedro

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Posted 11 September 2020 - 09:05 pm

Well that kind of explains what I feel when changing from 2nd into 3rd.  I've tried letting it rev out before changing up, I've tried changing up at low revs and still find it's as much luck as anything whether you get a clean change or not. I've tried hooking the lever up slowly and steadily and I've tried firmly and rapidly. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't ?
Mostly, I've just resigned myself to accepting that a fast change is more likely to crunch than a slow steady one. That is more or less feeling it into engagement. 
I'm content doing that, I don't want to be causing unnecessary damage.
And it's still a minor point really. It didn't detract from a 1600km three day tour of the Basque Region, that I'm just back from !


I find with mine, changing 2nd to 3rd quick stops the crunching. And also, weirdly enough, it changes smoother when going uphill and worse downhill. Must be something to do with the loading on the gearbox. I've gotten used to the bike so no big probs. The Basque region is beautiful, a lot greener then the arid and desert-like south where I am.

#18 curlylegend

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Posted 11 September 2020 - 09:13 pm

I find with mine, changing 2nd to 3rd quick stops the crunching. And also, weirdly enough, it changes smoother when going uphill and worse downhill. Must be something to do with the loading on the gearbox. I've gotten used to the bike so no big probs. The Basque region is beautiful, a lot greener then the arid and desert-like south where I am.

 

 

The pace I ride at now , it doesn't cause any problems at all.  It's just become a bit of a lucky dip to see which technique I use is going to be repeatable..... not found it yet !

Does oil make a difference ?

 

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#19 Pedro

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Posted 11 September 2020 - 09:25 pm

I find the gearbox is a lot smoother just after an oil change (10-40 semi) but only lasts about 500kms, after that, it's Massey Ferguson-like

#20 curlylegend

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Posted 12 September 2020 - 09:16 pm

I find the gearbox is a lot smoother just after an oil change (10-40 semi) but only lasts about 500kms, after that, it's Massey Ferguson-like

 

I'm currently using something similar, Supermarket stuff made in the refinery just across the river..... buy local ?   

I did try some of the super expensive "made from mermaids milk" stuff but couldn't notice any difference to justify the price.

Over the years I've found that cheap oil changed regularly as good as super expensive stuff. So I'm just about due a change within the next week or so.  

I'll report my findings....




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