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Power commander III

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#21 fixitsan

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Posted 30 March 2020 - 10:20 pm

Thanks for the offer. The O2 sensor will keep sending open/closed loop signals to the PC. Be better to let the PC do the full job properly  :pimp:

 

That's true.....but, the O2 sensor is only used when in closed loop mode, so not when decelerating and not accelerating or under heavy load. The PC will tweak everywhere in the fueling range, but the O2 sensor will correct it (probably try to lean it out in this case) only when running at a steady speed under constant load, like at a steady speed cruise, which I think might be also when you don't really benefit from having the  PC fitted ?

 

And to answer your next question, no sorry I don't know exactly when the transitions between modes take place, or even if they're instant or blended in/out :)  !


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#22 steve27bha

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Posted 30 March 2020 - 10:45 pm

... recommended a booster-plug, I read loads of reviews but resisted,

 

anyway I wasted a year, I surccumbed  in November, and bougt one, it turned a pig at low rev's to a great smooth ride, its been brilliant for me  :good:

 

now I am glad I did't find a PC, well pleased :badgerrock:

 

ramo,

I missed this. Can you give a link / details of the "booster plug" I don't know to what you refer.

Thanks,

steve
 


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#23 ramo

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Posted 31 March 2020 - 05:50 am

Here you go Steve  :good:

 

must be honest I've loads read topics around this kind of thing over a long time, I was sceptical, but I bit the bullet eventually, 

 

I never posted up because I couldn't be arsed with the " its only a 2p resistor brigade"

 

I spent money on my last TDM, PC+ custom map etc, but for the fuelling issues at low rev's the BP  certainly sorted mine (and I'm not easily pleased, so the missus says :rotflmmfao: )

 

 

 https://www.ebay.co....0gAAOSwsbhd633-

 

https://www.boosterp...hop/cms-21.html



#24 fixitsan

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Posted 31 March 2020 - 08:43 am

Here you go Steve  :good:

 

must be honest I've loads read topics around this kind of thing over a long time, I was sceptical, but I bit the bullet eventually, 

 

I never posted up because I couldn't be arsed with the " its only a 2p resistor brigade"

 

I spent money on my last TDM, PC+ custom map etc, but for the fuelling issues at low rev's the BP  certainly sorted mine (and I'm not easily pleased, so the missus says :rotflmmfao: )

 

 

 https://www.ebay.co....0gAAOSwsbhd633-

 

https://www.boosterp...hop/cms-21.html

 

It's only a 2p resistor and a bit more ;)  I got an improvement using just a resistor on the air intake temperature sensor, to fool the system into overfueling a bit. Not a problem when cruising because the O2 sensor tries to achieve the best AFR at that point, but I felt it improved the overall feel too


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#25 steve27bha

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Posted 31 March 2020 - 06:47 pm

 

... Not a problem when cruising ...

 

Cruising? Cruising!!

 

I thought you were a go-for-it kinda guy!

 

I won't make any jokes about another form of cruising.

 

PS Thank you, ramo, for the reply.
 


Edited by steve27bha, 31 March 2020 - 06:48 pm.

TDM900A 2008/09 in use, with     gallery_179098_391_770.jpg sml_gallery_179098_391_1145.jpg  gallery_179098_391_1206.jpg gallery_179098_391_253.jpg gallery_179098_391_82.jpg gallery_179098_391_725.gif gallery_179098_391_797.jpg gallery_179098_391_1396.jpg gallery_179098_391_501.jpg gallery_179098_391_316.jpg  gallery_179098_391_1768.jpg gallery_179098_391_106.jpggallery_179098_391_2170.jpg gallery_179098_391_1373.jpg

 

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#26 fixitsan

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Posted 31 March 2020 - 09:41 pm

 


 

I won't make any jokes about another form of cruising.

 

 

I'm too young to find a week on a ship enjoyable !


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#27 wicklamulla

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Posted 31 March 2020 - 09:53 pm

 

Cruising? Cruising!!

 

I thought you were a go-for-it kinda guy!

 

I won't make any jokes about another form of cruising.

 

PS Thank you, ramo, for the reply.
 

Cruising, typical TDM 900 rider behaviour. good to read the favourable results with the resistor.


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#28 dandywarhol

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Posted 01 April 2020 - 01:25 pm

 

That's true.....but, the O2 sensor is only used when in closed loop mode, so not when decelerating and not accelerating or under heavy load. The PC will tweak everywhere in the fueling range, but the O2 sensor will correct it (probably try to lean it out in this case) only when running at a steady speed under constant load, like at a steady speed cruise, which I think might be also when you don't really benefit from having the  PC fitted ?

 

And to answer your next question, no sorry I don't know exactly when the transitions between modes take place, or even if they're instant or blended in/out :)  !

 

Do you not think the stock O2 sensor and it's characteristics to leaning out the fuelling in mid range is part of the jerky fuelling issues with the engine? In which case the 2p resistor in series with the stock O2 sensor could be the ultimate TDM panacea ;-)


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#29 fixitsan

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 10:33 am

 

Do you not think the stock O2 sensor and it's characteristics to leaning out the fuelling in mid range is part of the jerky fuelling issues with the engine? In which case the 2p resistor in series with the stock O2 sensor could be the ultimate TDM panacea ;-)

 

 

As the lawyer said to the judge "all i have is conjecture" !

 

Unless told otherwise, I'm assuming that the stock O2 sensor is of a narrow band type. With a stoichiometric AFR of 14.7:!, the first O" sensors could detect AFR's in the range of 14:1 to 15:!. the output from these sensors aren't linear and the output rotates around 14.7:1. They were really only good at saying if the mixture was correct (14.7) or 'too lean' or 'too rich'.

 

i don't know about the 900's O2 sensor. if it is a very early insensitive type then you might well be right if the switching output from the O2 sensor is handled badly (too much response too quickly, not enough smoothing in software)

 

As you know already a wideband sensor is more useful for measuring O2 and controlling fueling, because it's output voltage is more directly related to an AFR ratio. The 900 O2 sensor could sit somewhere between the two types, but I think it's just a narrow band type, given their nearly 20 years old.

 

The output from O2 sensors is an AC waveform,  the AFR is relative to the peak voltage, instead of frequency (as far as I know the frequency stays constant. This is why a resistor mod isn't viable for O2 sensors, At least I wouldn't bank on a resistor mod being reliable in that case

 

 

The jerkiness, in my case was something I felt was fueling related. particularly when coming off throttle when the fuel cutoff takes effect. I felt it was the cutting off which was too aggressive, combined with the reintroduction of fuel. Fuel cutoff always happens when you slow down, and slowing down usually happens after a steady state condition when the O2 sensor was probably being referenced (IE not accelerating or working under heavy load, in open loop mode)

 

I don't know exactly why though, which is what interested me about the Samios remap, because their remap makes sure that fuel cutting doesn't happen, mimicking a carburetor that always meters out a bit of fuel even when the throttle is fully closed and the vehicle is slowing. this keeps the inlet ports partly primed with a fuel mixture among other things. Fuel restoration on the 900 might have a slight lag, in software, I don't know though because I haven't monitored it.

 

Cards on the table, I can't fully explain why the engine seems to run smoother with the resistor in series with the intake air temperature, because all it is doing is re-scaling the temperature range of the sensor. It is true that the 'Powerplug' solutions provide a more linear effect than a standard resistor. but when I reviewed my average operating temperature range of between 0C - 15C, the non linearity of the system is small enough, just a few percent, that a Powerplug would provide very little benefit over a simple resistor.

 

At the end of the day though, the results are small in their range, but enough for me to find a satisfactory improvement. Not the best improvement possible, but it changed the feel of the bike a little bit away from it's usual very tightly controlled fueling feel. Perhaps it's just a matter of personal bias because I like carbs ? :) maybe......

 

What i thought about when i was playing with various resistors was how nice it would be to make something which counteracted fuel cutting. From a technical point it would mean monitoring the crank sensor and intercepting the injector signals. A very basic system would work by opening the injectors for a small period to inject a small but meaningful amount of fuel, timed at a nominal angle from TDC. The rpm signal and timing signal in this case can both come from the crank sensor.

 

The problem of fuel restoration changeover might, or might not be an issue. The fuel cutoff defeating system could be blended out as it recognises the normal injector signals being restored by the ECU.

 

I've got a lot of 'lockdown jobs' to do but if i get a chance I might use Muddy's old bike as a testbed and start by intercepting the injector signals, mirroring them in software and controlling the injector, to get the bike running perfectly normally again despite the injector signal now being bypassed. I think if i get that far I can use curiosity to keep up my interest and develop it further.

 

But then again I have an even bigger interest in intercepting the ignition settings, because that immediately makes it possible to defeat any torque reduction in lower gears.

 

 

Like I say though, 'lockdown jobs' need to come first :(


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#30 dandywarhol

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 11:17 am

Interesting about the Samios not fuel cutting, didn't know that. That would make sense re. jerky control. Your reference to the intake air temp sensor reminded me when I fitted a 4700 ohm resister in my ol' Citroen Xara VTS - I was convinced it was as fast as a fast thing! It kidded the ECU to thinking the temp was 10 deg colder from memory


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#31 fixitsan

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 01:26 pm

Interesting about the Samios not fuel cutting, didn't know that. That would make sense re. jerky control. Your reference to the intake air temp sensor reminded me when I fitted a 4700 ohm resister in my ol' Citroen Xara VTS - I was convinced it was as fast as a fast thing! It kidded the ECU to thinking the temp was 10 deg colder from memory

That's it, just some fuel enrichment when in open loop mode, the ECU picks the relevant fueling table for the specific temperature, or at least it just modifies a single map depending on temperature.  In closed loop mode, and I'm guessing here, the final mixture ratio is decided by the O2 sensor, so it can cope with things like slowly clogging injectors, slowly clogging air filter etc. regardless of the temperature.  The O2 sensor will not care about temperature, the ECU just uses it to correct the ECU's initial calculated fuel demand.

 

The fuel cut is most noticeable halfway around a roundabout when you might need to reduce the throttle, if for example the traffic in front of you suddenly changes and you decide to roll off a little bit. With fuel cutting I had a noticeable instantaneous loss of engine drive which caused the bike to lean and drop into the direction of the bend more. With no fuel cutting the engine still produces a light forward drive, or at a least a less sudden dropping off of engine output.


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#32 Catteeclan

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 06:53 pm

You're not wrong there, I drag the rear brake while keeping a bit of throttle on.

Would have been nice to have more time with your ECU but for the time it was on the bike it was much smoother on/off throttle.


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#33 dandywarhol

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 07:15 pm

My lightly tuned 900 had a Power commander with the O2 sensor disconnected with the PC set up properly on a dyno. I never had a hint of the jerkiness 

others describe


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#34 ramo

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Posted 03 April 2020 - 05:45 am

Was the same here dandy,

 

when I had a power commander (with custom map, dyno'd) on my old niner I removed the lambda sensor, plugged the hole and removed all the bits from the airbox,

 

it ran sweet though all rev ranges, no jerkiness anywhere 



#35 tdmprofessor

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Posted 03 April 2020 - 06:46 am

Agree. The TDM900 is really jerky in original state. Just because it had to comply EUR norms.

There's no way a big 900cc engine should be jerky, not even at 1500 rpm.

 

PC3, and a good dyno run will solve this. Best to disconnect o2 sensor.

 

Samios mod is really great and makes TDM even more smooth (even if you already have PC3)

If you still have original exhaust and stuff you don't need to buy PC3, because he can already include a fuel mapping for original setup.



#36 TDM4ever

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Posted 03 April 2020 - 09:43 pm

My lightly tuned 900 had a Power commander with the O2 sensor disconnected with the PC set up properly on a dyno. I never had a hint of the jerkiness 

others describe

 

Same here.



#37 wideload

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Posted 22 March 2021 - 08:05 pm

Yep when I had a PC fitted I disconnected the o2 sensor and removed it from the exhaust, 

 

I must say I spent money on a PC plus a custom map on my last 9er, and it worked well,

 

I have been looking for a used one for well over a year now for my current bike, but not been able to find one,

 

last year a mate who was having fueling issues with his K 1300 recommended a booster-plug, I read loads of reviews but resisted,

 

anyway I wasted a year, I surccumbed  in November, and bougt one, it turned a pig at low rev's to a great smooth ride, its been brilliant for me  :good:

 

now I am glad I did't find a PC, well pleased :badgerrock:

Can you tell me where o2 plug is on the bike please . As looking to fit a o2 eliminator 


Can anyone tell me where the o2 sensor wire plugs into the main loom is please. Looking to fit a o2 eliminator and my o2 lambda sensor was removed by former owners. 



#38 wideload

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Posted 22 March 2021 - 08:26 pm

Is it with ABS?

 

As far as I remember, the ABS sensor is used to pick up the speed(?)

Can't be as mine does have ABS. 



#39 leehenty

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Posted 23 March 2021 - 12:26 pm

I use a booster plug as recommended by Ramo works very well but air flap needs to be disabled
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#40 fixitsan

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Posted 24 March 2021 - 05:44 pm

Interesting about the Samios not fuel cutting, didn't know that.

Although I've got enough projects in the queue already, I was wondering how to implement a hardware device to mimic fuel cutting.

Not too difficult, but I have no idea where to start in terms of injector timing and fuel volume, but then I remembered I could just put a scope on the bike while running the Samios map and copy that deceleration fueling data, to program into a custom device to mimic it :)


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