58 replies to this topic

[Coxylaad]

Stupid question - does the TDM 900 have a crank position sensor? 

[dapleb]

Yes coxylaaaaad

[fixitsan]

It lives in the alternator stator cover, lower left engine.

[Coxylaad]

cool. 

 

So my power commander bit the dust yesterday when I got the bike out. brown bread. 

 

I have managed to recover the map from Alan who used to own the bike.  So I have the map but nothing to put it on. 

 

 

I just happen to have a Bazzaz ZFi in my garage for a suzuki B king.  I am going to see if I can adapt the loom to work on the TDM. Having a google I dont think its been done before, but provided I give the ecu the sensor readings that it wants I cant see it being too difficult. The Bazzaz software is light years ahead of the power commander stuff with options for fuel trim by cylinder by gear (not that I will use that) and a plug in option for a self mapping unit, which I may look into. 

 

So inputs I need:

Throttle position sensor

crank position sensor

gear position (I don't think this is needed if I am not going to bother with fuel trim) 

 

The B king has an 8 injectors system which I am just going to use 2 of the main ones. 

 

It *should* work.....he says

[Coxylaad]

also does the crank position  have a positive and a negative? 

[fixitsan]

also does the crank position  have a positive and a negative? 

 

Well, yes, but.......

The crank position sensor is an inductive pickup type, which is a bit different to hall effect sensor. s'funny because i was just going to mention this to you anyway..... if the unit you're fitting requires to know the type of sensor don't select hall effect option. The cylinder identification sensor which runs off the cam IS a hall sensor and produces only positive polarised pulses, but the crank sensor is a true inductive pickup sensor. (a magnet in the rotor passes over the fixed coil windings of the sensor/pickup).

 

The output from an inductive pickup is polarised. It's output is an AC pulse. rising from 0V very quickly to peak voltage until the passing magnet is overhead, when it falls and then goes negative for a short while as the field induced voltage collapses.  Connecting it the wrong way around won't damage your unit, bit it will mean that you get a negative peak before a positive peak, which may affect the unit's timing. Having said that, your add on box might allow you to adjust your timing to compensate in which case it won't be a problem at all.

 

The input connections of the box you're fitting possibly already have diode protection, in which case the negative pulse won't be seen at all, but I would check that with the manufacturer/install instructions blah blah just to be sure

 

 

I hope this helps  - > https://www.picoauto...k-up-inductive/

Edited by fixitsan, 02 May 2018 - 10:15 am.

[Coxylaad]

cheers for the info. as for support from the manufacturer (Bazzaz) I am in the dark, I dont think they are interested in helping me one bit. 

 

so long as I don't damage anything it will be a suck it and see type of scenario. 

 

Throttle position is easy to sort, engine doesn't need to be running, so the only other thing I need to investigate is the wiring for the fuel injectors. I think suzuki have the same polarity as yamaha.  

[Coxylaad]

A quick google shows suzuki use hall effect sensors for the crank sensors. I don't have the option to select what sensor type.  I will just have to try it both ways and see what happens. 

 

I doubt it will have any negative effect getting it back to front, the unit is only using it for reading rpm, not for any sort of timing, so long as it doesnt muck up the signal to main ecu I should be fine. 

Edited by Coxylaad, 02 May 2018 - 10:46 am.

[fixitsan]

A quick google shows suzuki use hall effect sensors for the crank sensors. I don't have the option to select what sensor type.  I will just have to try it both ways and see what happens. 

 

I doubt it will have any negative effect getting it back to front, the unit is only using it for reading rpm, not for any sort of timing, so long as it doesnt muck up the signal to main ecu I should be fine. 

 

True but the gotcha there is that a hall sensor has an output (usually) of 5V. An inductive pickup can peak at 50V at very high revs. An input expecting a maximum of 5V might get fried.

 

It ought to be easy to make a convertor though, with a resistor and diode in series from one of the pickups wires, to a 5.1V Zener diode connected to ground.  ...I'm sure someone will have done this before, I'll see if there's already a diagram on the net.

 

It's much more difficult to derive an inductive pickup type output from hall sensor so you've got the easy one for sure !

[fixitsan]

Actually ....forget the idea of using a zener diode. It is too crude, and as RPM rises  the length of the pulse and also it's timing will change too

 

What you need is a zero crossing detection circuit, EG 

http://www.bristolwa...ro_crossing.htm

Those mostly use cheap optocouplers but you will probably get 2 pulses per crank revolution from the simple version because the signal crosses zero twice in that time, so adding a single diode will rectify that (or see the second design using a bridge rectumfryer)

 

There are ways of doing zero crossing with discrete IC's too http://www.analog.co...tml#cc-overview

 

And also if you have a microcontroller handy a few lines of code will let you detect a pulse falling from positive to negative, (most micros now have a hardware flag which tells you when this happens)

 

 

If the box you have is fairly well built then you can expect the inputs to have a series resistor to limit current, and a zener diode connected to ground to protect it from static discharges, but I don't think they will stand repetitive 50V pulses for long

 

 

 

EDIT, difficult to know for sure without some help from the manufacturer, but it may be that the unit self detects the type of pickup/sensor used, I think when I looked at a microsquirt unit it already had that ability built in, so who knows /

Edited by fixitsan, 02 May 2018 - 01:42 pm.

[Coxylaad]

we cant count on any manufacturer assistance. is there a reason why yamaha used an inductive proximity sensor for the crank when the standard always seems to be a hall effect one? 

[mh1848]

you are right not much on manufacturer's website - will the software give any indications? you can also get a manual there and there is a tube video - but you might already have checked these out - but note a different web than the uk one

[JBX]

we cant count on any manufacturer assistance. is there a reason why yamaha used an inductive proximity sensor for the crank when the standard always seems to be a hall effect one? 

 

Standard for crankshaft sensor is inductive pick-up, not hall effect sensor which are more expensive and require a +5V supply.

Inductive pick-ups are also more resistant to heat than a hall-effect sensor which has some electronics inside.

Being standard, you may find a bunch of IC specialized in managing the pick-up signal for the automotive industry. LM2907 for exemple.

[Coxylaad]

Ok, so maybe we need to use a process of elimination. Are there any other bikes that use inductive proximity sensors on their crank pickups? I had a 2012 fireblade with bazzaz. I would there woukd be some benefit in having a standard box and just making the loom to fit to a bike

So are we saying that the tdm ecu is accepting spikes of up to 50v??? I have used proximity induction sensors for my traction control on my track bike and there is nothing in the specs that mention a variable signal voltage?

Edited by Coxylaad, 02 May 2018 - 04:44 pm.

[JBX]

Be careful with the other sensors as their common grounding point is not the same as the chassis / ground of the bike.

By-passing this point may give you incorrect reading figures.

So are we saying that the tdm ecu is accepting spikes of up to 50v??? I have used proximity induction sensors for my traction control on my track bike and there is nothing in the specs that mention a variable signal voltage?

 

Automotive input circuit for the magnetic pick-up coils are designed to accept a variable pulse within this range.

[fixitsan]

Looks to me like the B-King is also an inductive sensor, so you should be fine. The B-king and Hyabusa alternators are the same, and usually come with crank position sensors integrated into the wiring loom

 

https://www.ebay.co....aAAAOSwdSRZ6Vzm

 

B-King - https://www.ebay.co....rAAAOSwPK1ZRGb8

 

That looks to me like an inductive pickup, the fact that there are only 2 wires for it confirms it really.

 

Like JBX says "

Standard for crankshaft sensor is inductive pick-up, not hall effect sensor which are more expensive and require a +5V supply.

Inductive pick-ups are also more resistant to heat than a hall-effect sensor which has some electronics inside."

[Coxylaad]

Well that's good news!

Time to get cracking!

[fixitsan]

Well that's good news!

Time to get cracking!

 

Looks like it

 

The only interesting thing is how it copes with the cross plane crank firing order, with it's 270 degree angle, as opposed to the Suzuki's flat plane crank and 180 degree firing order.  Hopefully it should have enough scope to detect the injector signal from the ECU and adapt to it, even if it is 90 degree 'late'

[Coxylaad]

That and the fact its going from 8 injectors to 2.

Should be ok because all its doing is modifying a signal thats already there, by a percentage. It's doesnt care at all about timing. The crank position feed is solely for rpm I believe

Edited by Coxylaad, 02 May 2018 - 11:01 pm.

[dandywarhol]

I wish I'd tried harder at school!