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#1 mgml

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 08:03 pm

Hi Guys.

 

Been lurking here a while.  Got a 19k miles 2003 TDM900 two months ago.  Won't bore you with how many bikes I've had but it's a lot, all types.  I'm done with my insane 1000cc sports phase (still got a Blade) and gone back to where I started on big trailie types.

 

Spent the last two months fettling the 900 but I've still got one big problem and a few smaller ones.  You won't be amazed to hear the big problem is sh**e low rev snatchiness, with the roll off just as bad as the roll on. It's had the air box mod' it has a P' Commander lll fitted, delkovic cans, it's been mapped (ages ago) I have the print outs, but it's still poor enough at low revs to make it a pain in the ass to ride.

 

I've increased the tickover to 1500 which helps. I've played with the CO2 settings which were 35/25 l/r raising them a few times up to 60/50, made no obvious difference so reset them back to original.  Best most obvious option is to have the P' Commander re-mapped.  Has anyone had this done?  Did it solve the problem?  Don't want to spend up to £200 (I've got a few rough quotes) if it doesn't fix it I'd leave it as she runs just fine once above 3k.

 

Cheers for any advice.

 



#2 Apache

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 08:10 pm

Hi Guys.
 
Been lurking here a while.  Got a 19k miles 2003 TDM900 two months ago.  Won't bore you with how many bikes I've had but it's a lot, all types.  I'm done with my insane 1000cc sports phase (still got a Blade) and gone back to where I started on big trailie types.
 
Spent the last two months fettling the 900 but I've still got one big problem and a few smaller ones.  You won't be amazed to hear the big problem is sh**e low rev snatchiness, with the roll off just as bad as the roll on. It's had the air box mod' it has a P' Commander lll fitted, delkovic cans, it's been mapped (ages ago) I have the print outs, but it's still poor enough at low revs to make it a pain in the ass to ride.
 
I've increased the tickover to 1500 which helps. I've played with the CO2 settings which were 35/25 l/r raising them a few times up to 60/50, made no obvious difference so reset them back to original.  Best most obvious option is to have the P' Commander re-mapped.  Has anyone had this done?  Did it solve the problem?  Don't want to spend up to £200 (I've got a few rough quotes) if it doesn't fix it I'd leave it as she runs just fine once above 3k.
 
Cheers for any advice.


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#3 dandywarhol

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 08:16 pm

It would be worth a remap on a dyno and then don't touch the CO buttons!


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#4 thelodger

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 08:28 pm

"They all do that sir"

 

Other things to try which may help , but wont eliminate entirely

 

put more slack in your throttle cable and consciously open the throttle smoothly

balance the throttle bodies

make sure your service items are fine ( plugs, air filter,valve clearances, chain and adjustment)

 

And if you stay above 3k, which you should be doing anyway as it's a big twin, you'll never have a problem.

 

Cheers



#5 fixitsan

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 09:05 pm

I did all of the above, and then advanced the timing 4 degrees, which helped smooth things out.

 

But there are a lot of large steps in the ignition timing tables so I got the ECU remapped. A Power Commander just about manages to help with fueling but it cannot change the throttle response curve or the ignition timing. Don't know what a Power Commander and PC remap costs, but the ECU remap was just 250 Euro (plus postage to Greece)

 

 

Whats your location ?


Edited by fixitsan, 30 July 2018 - 09:06 pm.

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#6 spike240

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 09:21 pm

Hi. I've had mine about 15 months and know exactly how you feel.
I have reduced throttle play to almost zero (improvement) - increased tickover to 1400 and my latest thing is to fit a 15t in place of stock 16t front sprocket. Combined with adopting a concious effort to try and keep it smooth and as others have said - rev it a bit more, these have improved things for me.

My last couple of rides have been with all these adjustments made and have come back with a big smile on my face.
Finally I will say just try stuff and see what works - obviously the free or cheap options first.

Good luck with it. Please let us know how you get on.

#7 mgml

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 09:39 pm

Thanks, two good replies. 

 

fixitsan.  How does advancing the timing help?  Surely the fueling is at the root of the problem so why wouldn't a power commander help?  Maybe not make it perfect but should help a lot.  The throttle response curve doesn't have to be super linear its the first few thousand revs that's the prob.

 

spike.    I also have my throttle play (on all my bikes) really finely set to give immediate response. (I'm baffled by the lodger's suggestion to do the opposite). I changed sprockets before, I know that 1 tooth less on front is a 'big' change I'd have thought 2 more on the rear is a bit better. Anyway it's a suggestion.

 

I also 'rev it' a bit more and slip the clutch, but we all know this is not solving the problem. I've had 3 Africa twins, 2 Transalps, a Cagiva elefant 900 (Ducati 900ss engine) all twins with none of this snatchy throttle boll***s.  The fact that people are doing all this stuff just to get what comes as standard with other bikes says it all. 


Edited by mgml, 30 July 2018 - 09:47 pm.


#8 fixitsan

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 09:58 pm

Thanks, two good replies. 

 

fixitsan.  How does advancing the timing help?  Surely the fueling is at the root of the problem so why wouldn't a power commander help?  Maybe not make it perfect but should help a lot.  The throttle response curve doesn't have to be super linear its the first few thousand revs that's the prob.

 

 

In the aftermarket parts world, 4 degree ignition advancers are common. They work because bike manufacturers make an engine run well, and then adjust it for the lowest quality of fuel which they think it might have to run on. If the ignition is too far advanced with low quality fuel, such as 91 octane then it suffers with preignition, So to accommodate that manufacturers retard the timing so that 91 fuel can be used. This can cause a slightly sluggish response and difficult throttle control at lower revs. By adding 4 degrees you could not run 91 fuel, but as we usually only have 95 or 98 fuel here thats fine.

 

The other cause of the on-off throttle issue is that the TDM900 ECU cuts all fuel when the engine is slowing and the throttle is closed, on the overrun. When you float in the hysteresis area of throttle on-off control you get a lot of jerking because sometimes the fuel is being cut completely. The remap of the ECU stops this by metering a small amount of fuel on overrun to the engine, just like the way carbs used to do with their low speed running jet. only a newer Power Commander (I think PC5) can add fuel on overrun even when it isn't part of the injector drive signal from the ECU, to smooth out throttle response for a lot of bikes

 

Then there is the ignition timing table itself, in 2nd and 3rd gear the ignition timing is retarded, like with a lot of modern bikes, to reduce maximum torque in low gears to make the bike a bit more user friendly for new riders, also limiting the noise level (for standards testing). A Power Commander can't eliminate that either. And the transitions in timing values aren't smooth, there are  a lot of steps in timing values as you go up through the rev range, with a standard ECU, so the remap smooths that out

 

What's your location ? If you're near Edinburgh you're welcome to have a go with my ECU

 

HTH


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#9 JBX

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 10:12 pm

Problems usually start with aftermarket cans...

 

"They all do that sir"

 

 

 

Not mine !

Bike is standard except air-box mod + added openings + bigger air-filter element.

No need for expensive stuffs or voodoo science to get a 9er that works ok.  ;)


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#10 mgml

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 10:28 pm

Thanks fixitsan.

 

Yeah, gotcha, that all makes sense.  I know manufacturers (reluctantly I assume) have to do this to meet emission regs etc.  The bike is indeed lousy on the overun.  My P' Comm' lll will obviously do so much then.  

 

This is all bad news as I don't want to start spending too much time and money faffing about to sort this out.  I'm a long way from you I'm afraid, I'm in Watford down south.


Edited by mgml, 30 July 2018 - 10:28 pm.


#11 JBX

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 10:37 pm

 

 

In the aftermarket parts world, 4 degree ignition advancers are common. They work because bike manufacturers make an engine run well, and then adjust it for the lowest quality of fuel which they think it might have to run on. If the ignition is too far advanced with low quality fuel, such as 91 octane then it suffers with preignition, So to accommodate that manufacturers retard the timing so that 91 fuel can be used. This can cause a slightly sluggish response and difficult throttle control at lower revs. By adding 4 degrees you could not run 91 fuel, but as we usually only have 95 or 98 fuel here thats fine.

 

The other cause of the on-off throttle issue is that the TDM900 ECU cuts all fuel when the engine is slowing and the throttle is closed, on the overrun. When you float in the hysteresis area of throttle on-off control you get a lot of jerking because sometimes the fuel is being cut completely. The remap of the ECU stops this by metering a small amount of fuel on overrun to the engine, just like the way carbs used to do with their low speed running jet. only a newer Power Commander (I think PC5) can add fuel on overrun even when it isn't part of the injector drive signal from the ECU, to smooth out throttle response for a lot of bikes

 

Then there is the ignition timing table itself, in 2nd and 3rd gear the ignition timing is retarded, like with a lot of modern bikes, to reduce maximum torque in low gears to make the bike a bit more user friendly for new riders, also limiting the noise level (for standards testing). A Power Commander can't eliminate that either. And the transitions in timing values aren't smooth, there are  a lot of steps in timing values as you go up through the rev range, with a standard ECU, so the remap smooths that out

 

What's your location ? If you're near Edinburgh you're welcome to have a go with my ECU

 

HTH

 

Sorry mate, but while I like some mods on a bike, I don't agree with the saying that the 9er (or any other bike/car) is a mess that requires expensive or complicazted mods/additional devices or the need for a mechanical engineer to work properly.

 

The ignition timing change in 2-3 gears actually existed on the 4TX, using the gear position sensor but I have no factory info about the 9er. Changing the ignition advance is something I don't advice to play with, because it may be the best way for a disaster : engine overheating, valve failure, etc.

 

The fuel injection cut during rev-down is something that is present on all injected engines, not only the 9er. Why would a four-strokes engine need fuel during rev-down ? It only increases fuel consumption & pollution. Fuel cut-off is an improvement over carbs, not a problem at all, even on the 9er, unless the idle rev speed is way too low, and the gap between the idle-rev & the cut-off rev limit - 2000rpm - is too big. Or the wrong gear is in use.

 

And no, not all carbs will deliver a small amount of fuel during cut-off, some of them had an improved design to cut fuel during rev-down - eg on the SR500 which was not a very sophisticated bike even with its above-average carb.

Standard carbs will deliver some fuel during rev-down because they were designed to be cheap, during an era when fuel was not expensive and without exhaust gas regulation. This was not a researched design, this was a design flaw.

 

Off course there is always the case of a badly tuned engine, or a rider who don't have all the skills to master a big twin or think it works like a four cylinders and uses too much low revs, but all in all, the 9er is a good bike with a good engine. As I said above, the main problem comes when the oem cans are replaced with aftermarket ones, which are designed to make noise & money, but are not designed to work with an injected engine.


Edited by JBX, 31 July 2018 - 12:22 am.

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#12 Bjørge

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Posted 31 July 2018 - 06:50 am

 

Then there is the ignition timing table itself, in 2nd and 3rd gear the ignition timing is retarded, like with a lot of modern bikes, to reduce maximum torque in low gears to make the bike a bit more user friendly for new riders, also limiting the noise level (for standards testing). A Power Commander can't eliminate that either. And the transitions in timing values aren't smooth, there are  a lot of steps in timing values as you go up through the rev range, with a standard ECU, so the remap smooths that out

 

 

They do that even without a gear position switch ? Calculating by speed/rpm ?


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#13 TDM4ever

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Posted 31 July 2018 - 06:50 am

"They all do that sir"

 

 

As JBX wrote, I don't agree either.

 

Mine does have a PC (just because it was there when I bought it) and I have had it remapped when I put on aftermarket cans.

 

However, it rode just fine with the OEM cans prior to having the PC remapped. Yes, it does have some jerkiness at low revs, but all FI big twins I have tried have it to some extent. It is just a matter of adapting to the way a big twin needs to be handled.

 

Having said that, putting on the aftermarket cans did make it more "snatchy" but remapping the PC smoothed things out and made it even better than with the stock cans.

 

Also, please note that Yamaha did make changes to the ECU on the 2007+ models to make them more smooth, so yours being a 2003 model might be worse than what I have experienced on my 2010 model. However, if you read the various road test of the 9'er when it came out, no one seems to complain about unusual jerkiness issues, which suggest that the problem on a stock - not messed with - 9'er, doesn't really exist.


Edited by TDM4ever, 31 July 2018 - 06:52 am.


#14 mgml

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Posted 31 July 2018 - 06:55 am

Problems usually start with aftermarket cans...

 

 

Not mine !

Bike is standard except air-box mod + added openings + bigger air-filter element.

No need for expensive stuffs or voodoo science to get a 9er that works ok.  ;)

 

What added openings ?

 

I don't want to exaggerate the problem making it sound like its unrideable, but it's more than enough to make it bloody irritating.


Edited by mgml, 31 July 2018 - 06:57 am.


#15 fixitsan

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Posted 31 July 2018 - 07:13 am

 

They do that even without a gear position switch ? Calculating by speed/rpm ?

 

 

Yes. :good:


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#16 fixitsan

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Posted 31 July 2018 - 07:56 am

 

Sorry mate, but while I like some mods on a bike, I don't agree with the saying that the 9er (or any other bike/car) is a mess that requires expensive or complicazted mods/additional devices or the need for a mechanical engineer to work properly.

 

The ignition timing change in 2-3 gears actually existed on the 4TX, using the gear position sensor but I have no factory info about the 9er. Changing the ignition advance is something I don't advice to play with, because it may be the best way for a disaster : engine overheating, valve failure, etc.

 

The fuel injection cut during rev-down is something that is present on all injected engines, not only the 9er. Why would a four-strokes engine need fuel during rev-down ? It only increases fuel consumption & pollution. Fuel cut-off is an improvement over carbs, not a problem at all, even on the 9er, unless the idle rev speed is way too low, and the gap between the idle-rev & the cut-off rev limit - 2000rpm - is too big. Or the wrong gear is in use.

 

And no, not all carbs will deliver a small amount of fuel during cut-off, some of them had an improved design to cut fuel during rev-down - eg on the SR500 which was not a very sophisticated bike even with its above-average carb.

Standard carbs will deliver some fuel during rev-down because they were designed to be cheap, during an era when fuel was not expensive and without exhaust gas regulation. This was not a researched design, this was a design flaw.

 

Off course there is always the case of a badly tuned engine, or a rider who don't have all the skills to master a big twin or think it works like a four cylinders and uses too much low revs, but all in all, the 9er is a good bike with a good engine. As I said above, the main problem comes when the oem cans are replaced with aftermarket ones, which are designed to make noise & money, but are not designed to work with an injected engine.

 

 

I didn't write that the 9er is a mess :)

 

I like the 9er in standard form, I prefer better it when the emissions and behaviour control (retarded timing) are negated..

 

i think I've proven to anyone's satisfaction, if not just my own, that advancing the timing on the 9er is not problematic at all, and when I changed the cam chain and did a service recently the spark plug colour could not have been more normal (That is with the Samios remap, with advanced timing tables and fueling changes) . Other people who have advanced the timing on the 9er or 850 didn't have problems. It is a standard modification for nearly every bike designed to run on the lowest quality fuel, which I'm pleased to say we don't ever get in the UK :)  (Here's a list of 4 degree advancers on ebay as an example of their widespread use https://www.ebay.co....dvance&_sacat=0)  If people were having serious issues I'm sure we would hear about it.

 

I was comparing the carb behaviour to an 850, having had all version of TDM I can appreciate the differences in behaviour. The 4tx is very easy to balance the throttle mid corner with, the 900 not so much. The difference is the instant fuel shutoff on the 9er, and the fact that it doesn't restore fuel supply until the revs are very low in comparison to other FI bikes. For example the K100 I had restored fuel at around 1900rpm on overrun. The TDM holds the fuel off for much longer, I think actually to below 1600rpm, which might be why raising your idle speed to 1500 really helps there.

 

 

I'm not sure about your last comment about silencers not being designed to work with an FI engine. To me they are designed to flow gas while reducing sound output levels. I understand the concepts of the requirement for some backpressure and the importance of maintaining high exit velocity to encourage exhaust gas scavenging, but I'm not sure I understand how an exhaust pipe design can be changed to suit an FI engine differently to a carb fed one.

 

The reason i didn't buy an expensive PC and then pay someone to play on a dyno frigging the map to try to hide perceived errors in fueling, is because a lot of the problem with rideability I have experienced didn't feel completely like fueling.

 

I think i mentioned in another thread I'm on the lookout for a bike with the Yamaha 660/650cc single (a few bikes use it) and I've already lined up a tuner to remap the ECU for the same reasons. If I bought a 650 single which  had a PC, I would recover some of the ECU remap costs by selling the PC.

 

Yamaha have a similar set of circumstances with their 660single, in the XT660 and MT-03 etc.... A lot of people find them an all or nothing ride with jerkiness around town at low revs. Aprilia put the same engine in the Pegaso 650 and remapped  the ECU to produce a much more refined, smooth, and enjoyable ride. The main difference documented between the two ECU  programs is that the Pegaso has has a lot more time spent on the ignition table. At some point Aprilia changed the tables again and then the reviews of the bike was that there was a surging at around 3000rpm. An examination revealed that the ignition timing tables had been changed to be more like Yamaha's. The Yamaha ignition map is more retarded below 3000rpm. The problem is that due to the choice of gearing 3000rpm is in the cruise zone for top gear in light traffic......

 

From one of the tuners sites about this...

 

 

The re-flash offer:

New fuel tables

New ignition timing tables (That will cure the surging 100% and that is the main problem of this ecu no matter what the O2 eliminator’s manufacture says)

New rev limiter at 7850 rpm

Disable deceleration fuel cut for perfect throttle response

 

Later TDM900 ECU's have a smoother low speed behaviour, and I suspect that when examined, the ignition tables will be considerably smoother too.

 

 

Like I said earlier, I'm not criticising the 900 and it would be silly of me to do it now, given that I've owned and enjoyed it for longer than any other bike I've ever owned, but the remap of the ECU isn't offered as a service just for you to say you have found someone who can make your bike drink more fuel. The behaviour of the bike, in particular being able to feather the throttle mid corner without any on-off lurching is great, especially if you're riding in a group and get (quite incorrectly and in a very amateurish way) bunched up together  ( expecting a comment about learning to pick the perfect entry speed here ;)

 

So that was my reason for the remap of the ECU, not so much because the bike is bad, per se, (because as you have said about bikes and has been correct about cars since early Bosch FI systems I used to work on , they all cut fuel). But that isn't ideal for me.  The ignition tables are sometimes awry, and not ideal for me, so I get someone who knows what they're doing to change them for me. And the torque reduction in low gears is standard on many bikes and I don't like it, so again, i got someone to remove it for me.

 

I see this sort of thing as being no different to changing the colour of the bike (didn't Yamaha produce the right colour ?) or changing tyres, or suspension (didn't Yamaha make it perfect in the first place ? )  The answers to the questions have nothing to do with it being a good bike or not, but more to do with how I want my riding experience to be

 

 

So comparing an ECU remap to a Power Commander, I find the costs to be comparable to one another and I find the extra benefits of the ECU remap, in terms of having the ignition timing changes outlined above, outweigh the retuneable nature of a PC....... For me.......  :)

 

 

Ultimately I think the decisions made at the factory about how a bike should feel when ridden are a compromise between what the test riders suggest, and what the marketing people need to deliver., as well as any legal obligations which need to be met.......and like every compromise they cannot suit everyone :)

 

 

 

 

EDIT, I just found this out about the Yamaha 660's, maybe Yamaha did a similar thing with the later 900's ? 

 

I have learned of some new functions between the 01 & 11 ECU on the dyno. Yamaha have removed the over run shut off function on the 11 ECU.
What this means is when you are riding on the freeway & shut off the throttle the 00 & 01 ECU cuts off the fuelling completely, the 11 ECU does not cut the fuelling any more, it leans the A/F ratio out . This feature offers a smoother uptake of the throttle when you open the throttle again.


Edited by fixitsan, 31 July 2018 - 12:31 pm.

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#17 thelodger

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Posted 31 July 2018 - 08:05 am

They all do that sir.

 

My comment was about stock bikes.   I have largely eliminated all the jerkiness on my bike  by fitting a Dobeck tfi 1025 ( a bit like a PC but manually tuned )  , doing the airbox mod ( yes, still effective on a post 2007 bike ) and learning how to ride the bike.

 

Throttle slack is to encourage riders to open the throttle smoothly rather than hestitating on opening the throttle because jerkiness is anticipated. Any hesitation allows the revs to drop thus making the problem worse.

 

Cheers


Edited by thelodger, 04 August 2018 - 08:18 pm.


#18 wicklamulla

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Posted 31 July 2018 - 10:00 am

Hi Guys.

 

Been lurking here a while.  Got a 19k miles 2003 TDM900 two months ago.  Won't bore you with how many bikes I've had but it's a lot, all types.  I'm done with my insane 1000cc sports phase (still got a Blade) and gone back to where I started on big trailie types.

 

Spent the last two months fettling the 900 but I've still got one big problem and a few smaller ones.  You won't be amazed to hear the big problem is sh**e low rev snatchiness, with the roll off just as bad as the roll on. It's had the air box mod' it has a P' Commander lll fitted, delkovic cans, it's been mapped (ages ago) I have the print outs, but it's still poor enough at low revs to make it a pain in the ass to ride.

 

I've increased the tickover to 1500 which helps. I've played with the CO2 settings which were 35/25 l/r raising them a few times up to 60/50, made no obvious difference so reset them back to original.  Best most obvious option is to have the P' Commander re-mapped.  Has anyone had this done?  Did it solve the problem?  Don't want to spend up to £200 (I've got a few rough quotes) if it doesn't fix it I'd leave it as she runs just fine once above 3k.

 

Cheers for any advice.

 

 

 

 

Hello and welcome.  I wonder if yer TPS has been upgraded on that bike,  also worth looking at the cam chain tensioner as there is a modified one of those too. I wonder if yer timing is correct?  Is it a 2002 bike on a 2003 plate i wonder as some very early 900's had to have the TCI (CDI thingy) replaced due to running problems?


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#19 dandywarhol

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Posted 31 July 2018 - 12:17 pm

I'd forgotten about the TPS issues Wickster. I had mine replaced under warranty - issue was dust/dirt getting onto the coil winding in the sensor - modified dust seal sorted it. The symptoms were jerkyness as the TPS "sweep" was interrupted by dirt


1967 Yamaha TD1C 250, 2014 Kawasaki W800, 2011 Aprilia Tuono 1000 V4, 2020 Yamaha XSR900

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#20 mgml

mgml

    sticking around

  • Member
  • 39 posts
  • TDM model: 2003

Posted 31 July 2018 - 07:16 pm

Thank for the replies, learnt a lot.  I tend to agree with fixitsan about the general cause of this problem. Not saying aftermarket cans don't cause problems but this is too common and widespread and some have no trouble with non standard cans. I've had non standard cans on almost all my other twins and other bikes without any problems. 

 

Never crossed my mind about having the ECU flashed or about the Dobeck options. Will look into that.  I know about the TPS issue and don't think I have that.  I think I've given the impression it's almost unrideable, it's not, but it's enough to make riding unenjoyable.  




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