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Poor Fuel Economy, Even After New Emulsion Tubes


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#1 Naur

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 07:16 am

Hello friends, 

Recently I overhauled my carburettors, with new tubes and new main jet. 
I could not get a kit with a #140 main jet, which would be correct for my bike ('91 3VD) but a #142 main jet instead. 

 

I've set the needle jet clip in the third (middle) position. And the airscrew is set according to haynes' specs.
The previous setup was strange. It had a #130 main jet, and the emulsion tubes were visibly grooved. 

However, after the overhaul, I get a fuel economy ranging from 15.5 to 13.5 km/l or from 43.78 to 38.13 mpg.

That's not very impressive to me.

I have a feeling that the bike is running rich. It smells slightly of gasoline when it idles. But I haven't proved it yet. 
 

I was thinking that either I could try moving the needle jet clip up one step, to lean out the bike. 
Other than that I have few good ideas. 

What do you think? Any tips or tricks?

Thank you for any reply, 
Peter



#2 fixitsan

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 07:44 am

I would move the clip up one too.

 

I would also check the CO with an analyser, and check for plug fouling.

 

If you move the clip and then go for a few runs over a weekend and check the colour of the plugs afterwards, if they look normal, and the bike runs well, then you're in the ballpark


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#3 Bjørge

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 07:47 am

Do you know if the needles are original or have a similar profile ? There are DynoJet kits out there with different needles. I tried them once, and my bike didn't run properly at all....

 

I have overhauled my own carbs now, yesterday I measured 2.14km/l or 60mpg (Varying pace from 70 - 100 km/h, mostly commuting).


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#4 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 08:55 am

Is that British gallons or American gallons you refer to when you say you're getting 38-43mpg ?  I wouldn't think the oversized main jets will be helping improve economy, might be worth putting the 130's back in and see if that improves things.  It's worth checking the condition of the choke plungers as they have a habit of rotting away and letting extra fuel in.  A carb balance after any adjustments/changes might also help. :)


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#5 TYREDNGRUMPEE

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 09:42 am

15.5 to 13.5 km/l or from 43.78 to 38.13 mpg.

 

 

 

Is that British gallons or American gallons you refer to when you say you're getting 38-43mpg ?

 

km/l can be directly converted to mpg Imp.

15.5 to 13.5 km/l = 70.3 to 61.3 km/Imp = 44.0 to 38.3 mpg Imp. 

Answer = British gallons.

 

My figures below represent 9K miles of use, 42K miles/carbs original, open pipes  (2" bore, bit smelly) and a fair bit of throttle twisting against smooth riding.

Guess I won't bother refurbing the carbs this year.

It's worth bearing in mind that the natural desire is that you would want your new figures to hit the high mark immediately and consistently.

Lots of people will always quote you the best figure they've seen and don't record a broad range of use.

Day to day, my mpg is anyones guess. From the spread below, you would come to the figures of 44-47 mpg Imp.

So get a proper main jet perhaps, valve clearances and balance as SR suggests?

 

rjhyj_zpshqpinnn7.jpg


Edited by TYREDNGRUMPEE, 13 May 2016 - 10:10 am.


#6 Naur

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Posted 15 May 2016 - 11:02 am

Thank you so much for your replies. 

I think the needles are stock. I haven't changed in any case. 
I should definitely check for plug fouling. 
The weird thing is, I feel the bike is running quite well. There's no bangs from the exhaust, but maybe it is slightly sluggish from 2500 revs to 3500. Nothing major. 
I did not change the choke plungers.. And to be honest, they didn't look too good  :hide:  
So I'm thinking to change them, and move the needle clip. But which to do first. 
And can it really be true that a new pair of choke plungers will cost me fifty pounds?! For a stupid plastic stick?

Well, anyway, thank you again for your replies. 
I'll check the plugs first, and then go from there. 
Cheers, Peter



#7 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 15 May 2016 - 02:02 pm

http://www.nrp-carbs...product_id=2061  :)


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#8 TDrummer

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Posted 20 May 2016 - 06:45 pm

I did not change the choke plungers.. And to be honest, they didn't look too good

 

choke plungers, needle valves, etc.

My 92 gets 50 MPG (US)

Has FP tubes, needles, springs and stock mains

I replaced everything on the carbs that could have been worn or rotted including the air box boot and head manifold, so, pretty much everything

 

I think you have more worn parts in there to replace...



#9 Phracker

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 05:11 pm

You have worn parts that's all. If you do plan to replace the choke plungers, you might as well just rebuild the carbs seeming everything will be out of the bike at that point. I replaced the rubber (yammy still sells them) between the carbs and intake, as well as the ones between the airbox and carbs. Nothing was seating anymore and had some noticeable leaks. Took apart the carbs next to see what was going on and found worn choke plungers, emulsion tubes + needles (53000km bike), hard as hockey puck gaskets and the paper fuel filter that had started to throw bits into the carbs themselves.

 

Mistake #1

I will start by saying I poked the bear and put in a cheap ebay carb jetting kit and payed the price. Everything was suppose to be spec for MK1 with stock sizes but the kit was horrible with the exception of fresh gaskets. I spent two weeks #$@ing playing with the new needle settings and mixture screw. It was always lean and pinged after warming up. Started to run 94 octane just so I didn't destroy the motor trying to sort this out. Under a 10x microscope you could see all the holes for the pilots and mains were way off and that the build quality was what you would expect for cheap knockoffs.

 

The proper approach:

Very carefully took all the gaskets and plastic parts and cleaned with a little dawn handsoap and some water (except the CV slide and diaphragm, leave them alone). Patted them dry with a clean rag and put off to the side till assembly. Took all the old mikuni jetting and clean them (ultrasonic and blown through with air) I did the same with the carb bodies and check that all passages were clear. Ordered a factory pro kit for new tubes and needles. Installed the old jets and then put in my replacement factory pro emulsion tubes + needles. **** Checked the float height **** and one was 13mm if measured from the highest point of the float to the where the gasket rests against the body. The other was 15.26mm which is near the 15mm stock setting. Fixed the float height, threw it all back together and resynced the carbs.

 

I never like cleaning plastic or rubber with solvents because they will likely dry them out and make for more issues later. A good hand soup and water will keep them from being damaged.

 

Current settings for my 92 TDM 850 3VD are:

Pilot jet: #37.5 (stock)

Needles: #1175i-90q-70r-45t_ti (Factory Pro titanium is just the _ti part of the number)

Needle clip pos: 3rd/middle position

Float height: 15mm

Main jet: #142.5 ( aftermarket GPR single exhaust)

mixture screws: 2.5 turns ( stock is 3) & FP recommends 2

 

Bike starts and idles much better. I also changed the CV springs in hopes to help part throttle response, but some minor tuning is still needed. I have a flatspot around 4k, but that's an easy fix. The plated emulsion tubes and titanium needles are overkill, but my aim is for me not to do anymore serious carb work on this bike for at least 10 years.


Edited by Phracker, 04 June 2016 - 02:21 pm.


#10 TDrummer

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 06:11 pm

I also changed the CV springs

 

 

Did you use the FP springs?

 

Not sure what improvement the FP needles, tubes and springs made since my carbs were jacked up beyond the beyond but it does run so sweet after the rebuild.

Also replaced fuel pump with new OEM.

Exhaust is two into one into a ZX14 muffler.

 

Bike really seems to like the way it's set up now.

Pulls very strong to redline.

Only slight complaint is lean at low throttle when temps are below 50ºF but not complaining.



#11 Phracker

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 07:18 pm

Only slight complaint is lean at low throttle when temps are below 50ºF but not complaining.

 

It's a bit warm now for me to see if I get the same lean condition when it's cold. If I remember, I'll make a post in the fall ;)

 

Could play with the mixture and richen it up just a breath (1/4 turn or less). You are now making me regret not getting the longer mixture screws that can be fiddled with without removing the battery.

 

Yep, I'm using the CV springs from the kit. Noticable change when you roll in and come out of throttle, but that could also just be from fixing massive carb troubles.



#12 TDrummer

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 07:26 pm

yeah my throttle response is about the best I've had on any carb'd bike



#13 Naur

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 08:49 pm

Right, 
Thank you so much for taking the time to write these things!
I'll order new choke plungers, and inlet rubbers, and post back when I have it installed. 
Thanks again guys!



#14 dapleb

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 06:31 am

I wouldn't order new carb to hair box rubbers. They are a very poor design and destined to slip off. Ewe can mod the existing ones for a fraction of the cost using sillycone poipe, details on carpe somewhere.
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#15 Phracker

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 05:56 pm

I wouldn't order new carb to hair box rubbers. They are a very poor design and destined to slip off. Ewe can mod the existing ones for a fraction of the cost using sillycone poipe, details on carpe somewhere.

That's not a bad idea, shame I didn't go looking around before I got crazy with my wallet. I'm sure some old velocity stacks and silicon pipe would make for an excellent replacement inside the airbox.

 

Shallow carb lip, zero ridge on carb/boot and the clamp that holds it all together. It's a combination of things that makes them terrible.



#16 Phracker

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 04:51 pm

 

Just had a couple of 50ºF nights. Right around the 2500-3500 range that it feels a touch lean, but as you said it's nothing of real concern. 



#17 Naur

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 08:39 am

Right! 

Got my parts, and installed them. 
The old plunger were almost worn through, and my inlet rubber was bad too. 
BUT.. The bike doesn't run particularly well. Rather, it is quite sluggish on the throttle, and if I give full throttle it seems to drown out, if that makes any sense. 
It idles fine, and starts fine, but the ride is not very responsive. 
I'll see if I can figure out how to measure fuel levels, and sync. 
Any comments or tips are much appreciated :)



#18 Studley Ramrod

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 09:34 am

If the old plungers were letting fuel in then new plungers will prolly mean setting the carbs up.  Sounds like you might need to adjust the fuel levels and/or reposition the clip on the jet needles, followed by a carb balance.  Make sure the engine is warmed up and you've lowered the tickover revs before doing the balance, you might need to go back to change tickover settings as you start adjusting the balance. 


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#19 Naur

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 10:39 am

Sounds about right. 
Thanks for the reply! It's a great help!
So, I have measured the fuel levels. It only reaches the mark on the float bowl, and not 7,4-8,4 mm above it. 
Suggestions? :)



#20 Bjørge

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Posted 24 June 2016 - 12:21 pm

Sounds about right. 
Thanks for the reply! It's a great help!
So, I have measured the fuel levels. It only reaches the mark on the float bowl, and not 7,4-8,4 mm above it. 
Suggestions? :)

 

I just about was where you are now - had 2 different problems, I believe:

1. Fuel pump delivered too little

2. Fuel levels was too low afer changing float valves.

...btw, it was hard to measure correctly, had different readings from time to time.

 

- did you actually change float valves ?


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