22 replies to this topic

[Northpennines]

Charging problem ...does anyone have any advice on a 1993 850 3vd which is putting out low voltage between 12.6 and 13.4 drops under acceleration and when lights on... ohms check on reg seems fine, ac voltage at alternator fine and nothing down to earth.. wiring fine between all.. bit stumped.. basically bike fine but as soon as load is on it discharging... ive fitted a voltmeter to dash so can monitor it.. it does read correctly...help !!  

Edited by Northpennines, 26 December 2014 - 01:30 pm.

[Limbo]

Show the voltage between the white cable to the generator?

All voltages equal?

messure the voltage when the engine is running and fully charged battery behind the voltage regulator. 14.4 VDC is OK.

Measure the voltage at the battery.

as 14.4 V or loss of voltage on the cables?

 

Limbo

[Northpennines]

Yes done that. Voltages all equal.. Only thing I can see is that on tickover ac voltage is slightly down but as soon as revs slighly lifted , say 2000 rpm were at about 60 volts ac....
Just to add the voltage is the same at reg and battery... About 12.8-13.4
Dc

[Favs]

https://www.electros...ing-diagram.pdf

HTH
Favs

[TYREDNGRUMPEE]

you say 12.8-13.4v

 

do you mean 14.3v instead ? because otherwise 13.4v is not sufficient

 

just asking

 

ask yourself how old the battery is

 

take it out charged and see how it behaves indoors over 48 hours

[Limbo]

Just to add the voltage is the same at reg and battery... About 12.8-13.4
Dc

 

This measurement is only ready, when the battery is fully charged !!!!!!

 

When the battery is fully charged then this voltage should be 14.4 volts.

 

Can you recharge the battery connected to the energy network?

At the end of the battery charging  the battery connected on the charger 14.4 volt measure ?

Then battery OK.

 

Before you can determine a fault in the voltage regulator, need to know the battery is OK.

[TYREDNGRUMPEE]

 

Before you can determine a fault in the voltage regulator, need to know the battery is OK.

 

 

Like my German friend says. Me too.

 

Don't chase a "fault" until you are sure all the battery cells are healthy.

 

It is Winter after all. You should consider battery health first.

[Northpennines]

 

Like my German friend says. Me too.

 

Don't chase a "fault" until you are sure all the battery cells are healthy.

 

It is Winter after all. You should consider battery health first.

Hi. it was a new battery a couple of month ago but was doing it straight away.. it wasnt an expensive one.. think it was £30 delivered.. bought bike as a non runner...the battery fully charged is sitting at a little over 13v.  im struggling to remember but when i worked in a motorcycle shop 20 yrs ago and battery voltage was meant to be charging at 13.6 -13.8 volts until you put headlights on then charge went up to 14.6v.. i dont think ive ever seen a battery sit at 14.4v disconected.  correct me if im wrong cos its a bad day you dont learn anything. i did connect a car battery with full charge ( easier as im a car mechanic) but it made no differance at all , exactly same results, same numbers.. I do appreaciate the amps an a car battery is massively different so may not have been the best to try.. the motorcycle battery thats on is healthy enough to turn it over for 2 or 3 minutes no problem when been stood 3 month so i dont think its a battery issue.

https://www.electros...ing-diagram.pdf

HTH
Favs

thanks.. iv got that already and been throught it.. all seems ok , numbers right.. but isnt... 

Edited by Northpennines, 26 December 2014 - 04:58 pm.

[TYREDNGRUMPEE]

A proper battery sits at 12.6-12.7v fully charged. That is 2.1v per cell. 13v is too high and may point to a problem.

 

Charging voltage is typically 14.2-14.4v.

 

Sometimes Limbo's advice gets lost in Google Translation (but he DOES know what he is talking about).

 

I'd suggest checking the battery first, regardless.

 

If you end up replacing any other part of the charging circuit later you would be well advised to replace the battery as a matter of course.

 

BTW, what about this "13.4v" figure you have been stating? Is this correct? Because if it is, then it is not good.

 

I'd put the battery across an external charger first and then see how it behaves off the bike and indoors for 48 hours.

 

then

 

If the resistances through the stator are ok and equal then you will have to consider the regulator/rectifier.

 

1. battery ok ish.

2. stator A/B/C circuits  equal

3. then check regulator

 

check everything else electrical

 

4. If anything gets replaced then treat the bike to a new battery regardless

Edited by TYREDNGRUMPEE, 26 December 2014 - 05:24 pm.

[Northpennines]

Yes 13.4 is basically what is the average charge... Occasionally we may be upto 13.9 but that's it... Under acceleration voltage drops. On run over it rise a little but never over 13.9. The average voltage when running at 2000 rpm is 13.4 it also drops on tickover to about 12.7. As I say there a good kick in the battery but wonder now if the cells maybe are high resistance . I just don't remember motorcycle charging systems being that sensetive. Generally I always found if a battery was well enough to turn over a bike for a few minutes it was fine.. Are the Yamaha charging really that sensitive to resitance ???

Edited by Northpennines, 26 December 2014 - 05:23 pm.

[Northpennines]

just to add. i was out yesterday. tried out new heated vest.. 5 amp.. in 15 mins battery was down to 11.6 v.. soon as i noticed i disconected.. slowly it came back up pbut wasnt getting high numbers.. even when running was starting off with 11.7 then slowly came back to 13,4 after anoth 15 minute.. so whatever charge is going in is very weak,,

[Northpennines]

if i disconnect battery all together and put fully charged car battery in its place i get exactley the same results... im really stumped.. ill easy buy a battery if thats what it is but i dont think its pointing to it unless as i asked are these charging systems hyper sensitive ?

Edited by Northpennines, 26 December 2014 - 05:35 pm.

[Northpennines]

A proper battery sits at 12.6-12.7v fully charged. That is 2.1v per cell. 13v is too high and may point to a problem.

 

Charging voltage is typically 14.2-14.4v.

 

Sometimes Limbo's advice gets lost in Google Translation (but he DOES know what he is talking about).

 

I'd suggest checking the battery first, regardless.

 

If you end up replacing any other part of the charging circuit later you would be well advised to replace the battery as a matter of course.

 

BTW, what about this "13.4v" figure you have been stating? Is this correct? Because if it is, then it is not good.

 

I'd put the battery across an external charger first and then see how it behaves off the bike and indoors for 48 hours.

 

then

 

If the resistances through the stator are ok and equal then you will have to consider the regulator/rectifier.

 

1. battery ok ish.

2. stator A/B/C circuits  equal

3. then check regulator

 

check everything else electrical

 

4. If anything gets replaced then treat the bike to a new battery regardless

Everything youve suggested ive done but ive just had a thought... a reg/rectifier, as i understands it converts 3 phase ac to dc and stops the battery kicking out crazy high voltage and frying batteries.do you know if all the tdm rectifiers have the same properties..  i ask because although the numbers on mine were reading fine i tried one off my mates suzuki.. it behaved just the same but with slightly lower voltage.. indicating a higher resittance. i think there is two differant types rectifiers fitted to 93 tdm and im just wondering if someone may have mismatched parts fitting a higher resistance rectifier , hence lower charging voltage..  would be interesting to know if the 2 types fitted on this year have same resistances.. .. any idea ??  cheers. 

Edited by Northpennines, 26 December 2014 - 06:01 pm.

[TYREDNGRUMPEE]

just to add. i was out yesterday. tried out new heated vest.. 5 amp.. in 15 mins battery was down to 11.6 v.. soon as i noticed i disconected.. slowly it came back up pbut wasnt getting high numbers.. even when running was starting off with 11.7 then slowly came back to 13,4 after anoth 15 minute.. so whatever charge is going in is very weak,,

 

Yep. That won't help. Bet that tested your reg/rec good and proper. Was the jacket connected across the battery?

 

Yes 13.4 is basically what is the average charge... Occasionally we may be upto 13.9 but that's it... 

 

Not healthy. So check the stator providing the charge and the regulator that 

 

if i disconnect battery all together and put fully charged car battery in its place i get exactley the same results... im really stumped.. ill easy buy a battery if thats what it is but i dont think its pointing to it unless as i asked are these charging systems hyper sensitive ?

 

It's not necessarily your battery.

 

Just that once you've addressed the true problem you may as well replace the battery anyway as it may carry over a fault that trashes your repair.

 

1. take out battery. NOT SO IMPORTANT but worth checking

 

2. monitor battery voltage drop/bottom. NOT SO IMPORTANT but still worth checking 12.6-12.75v

 

3. satisfy yourself that all 3 stator circuits are healthy. IMPORTANT. equalish resistance. measured hot and cold.

 

4. if you are satisfied all 3 stator circuits are healthy then have a damn good look at your reg/rec. BUY A NEW ONE after you are sure nothing else could be causing a failure and get one of the more modern configurations while you are at it. Don't trust your existing battery either.

[Northpennines]

 

Yep. That won't help. Bet that tested your reg/rec good and proper. Was the jacket connected across the battery?

 

 

Not healthy. So check the stator providing the charge and the regulator that 

 

 

It's not necessarily your battery.

 

Just that once you've addressed the true problem you may as well replace the battery anyway as it may carry over a fault that trashes your repair.

 

1. take out battery. NOT SO IMPORTANT but worth checking

 

2. monitor battery voltage drop/bottom. NOT SO IMPORTANT but still worth checking 12.6-12.75v

 

3. satisfy yourself that all 3 stator circuits are healthy. IMPORTANT. equalish resistance. measured hot and cold.

 

4. if you are satisfied all 3 stator circuits are healthy then have a damn good look at your reg/rec. BUY A NEW ONE after you are sure nothing else could be causing a failure and get one of the more modern configurations while you are at it. Don't trust your existing battery either.

yes the vest was wired onto positive at start solonoid.. just to try it so basically direct isnt it... the only thing i didnt like about the stator ac voltage was it was bloody low on tickover but as soon as revs increased upto 2000 then it was 60v ac.. all equal and nothing running to earth.. thats the only anomaolly.. i wondered if this would have a bearing but i also tested them under load and still 60v... also do you know if a 4tx regulator will be ok. both 5 wires. simply half the price of the one thats on., were on a budget..lol... appreaciate you taking time to help... cheers.

[TYREDNGRUMPEE]

MOSFET

 

http://www.carpe-tdm...724#entry305550

 

Sounds like one of your reg/rec diodes is shorting to ground more than the others

 

http://www.superhawk...117/#post297838

[Northpennines]

MOSFET

 

http://www.carpe-tdm...724#entry305550

 

Sounds like one of your reg/rec diodes is shorting to ground more than the others

 

http://www.superhawk...117/#post297838

Great..  some very interesting reading..  after reading this i do think first port of call is must be rectifier.. ill pull battery off as well and do a proper bench test on that..just to make sure.  many thanks for taking the time out to help..  cheers mate  

[jono49]

I still think there's some basic checks to do first, Have you put a Jump lead from the earth terminal on the battery to a good earthing point on the engine test that first and see if that increases the voltage when running, and check the positive terminal in the starter as well for corrosion.

Edited by jono49, 26 December 2014 - 09:55 pm.

[Northpennines]

Yes. All earths renewed and complete wiring corrosion free inc all connections and terminal s...

[Studley Ramrod]

2 particular items that are known for current leakage are the starter solenoid and the fusebox assembly so worth checking the terminals and internal components aren't corroded.